58 caliber flintlock help

[54ball]

I can think of only one thing that will make a longrifle have a wandering zero. Poor breech fit. If the breech is fit poorly that may cause the ball to wander. There should be very very little to no gap behind the breech of the barrel and the breech face of the stock. Did you have good contact there? If it's fit very poorly, the recoil can even crack the stock at the tang and lock bolts as the bolts absorb the recoil instead of the breech face of the stock. That could cause an accuracy problem.

Other than that, IMHO it's all on the shooter and his choice of load...mostly the shooter.

If the breech is good, the only real remedy I see is to shoot shoot and shoot until you learn the rifle.

 

[doubletrouble]

The breech plug was already installed when I got the barrel. It is tight but I might pull it to see how the fit is especially if bore has bad run out at that end and if breech plug is aligned correctly with run out.
Yes practice practice for off hand but the bench shooting should result in a good group. The first two shots are always good. The first shot is the one that counts so I guess I need to shoot until I can hit off hand with the first shot.
Thanks for everyones help and hints.

 

[Chowmif16]

54ball wasn't talking about the breech plug, he was talking about the fit between the breech of the barrel and the wood of the stock. In other words, is the back of the barrel snug up against the vertical face of wood below the tang?
I'd also add, do the bottom flats of the barrel show good contact with the barrel channel for at least a few inches in front of the breech?

 

[doubletrouble]

The tang does fit well in stock but there is a little gap on one side of barrel channel where the channel had been cut too deep for barrel. Maybe I'LL bed that area to see if that helps. Lots of ideas and things to try.

 

[M. De Land]

How do you stress relieve them?

 

[doubletrouble]

I glass bedded the breech and tang area of barrel. The inletting was close but the glass did fill in any flaws. Didn't see any difference when I shot it again after bedding.
I got several more types of patching material to try and several more lubes. One material was an upholstery cloth that had a really tight weave and was the right thickness for the .562 diameter ball. When I tried this combo the patch was a ball of loose thread after firing. So much for that stuff. Tried the .562 ball with several other thick patches but this ball is most likely too small because it didn't shoot as well as the .575 with a thinner patch.
I called Jason at Rice barrels which is the maker of my barrel and he was very helpful with lots of suggestions to try. He stands behind his products and said he would do everything to make me happy. Said he would repair or replace barrel if needed. Rice barrels is only about 4 hours drive from me so I may take it to him to see if he can figure it out. Nice to have someone willing to stand behind his product.
So far the only loads that work fair are a .575 ball with a .017 linen patch lubed with a beeswax-lanolin mix and a 58 caliber Wonder wad between the ball and powder. The Wonder wad and the 28 ga lubed fiber wads are the only thing that keeps patches from blowing up. It doesn't matter whether I use 2F or 3F Swiss or Goex I have to protect the patch. I've tried 70 to 110 grs of powder and 110 seems to be the most accurate.
Are round bottomed rifled barrels worse for blowing patches? Also when at a public range the other day several people told me that swamped barrels don't shoot very good. Is this true?
So far the best I can get this gun to do off bench at 50 yards is about a 4 inch group. As said before most of the time the first two shots are very close to each other and then group goes to pot. I've let barrel cool but its like it has to be washed clean to shoot. I swab between shots with two spit wet and two dry patches.
This has been the most frustrating muzzleloader I've ever messed with.

 

[BrownBear]

...a beeswax-lanolin mix....

Dunno enough about swamped barrels or round-bottom rifling to be helpful there, but I'd sure be inclined to try different lubes. In my experience it can have a big impact on accuracy, and even patch life in some cases. There's no single "magic" lube that works in all guns, but TOW's mink oil tallow works in so many of mine, I'm starting to have magical feelings about it.

I'd also put .570" balls high on your list to try since you've had issues with both .562 and .575.

Interesting puzzle for the rest of us, but running to the frustrating side for you, I'm sure.

 

[timothy prouty]

TRY taking a1/2inch brass rod about7inches long and put it down the bore and then put a patch and ball down and pulled it out and see if the patch is torn up

 

[biliff]

FWIW, swamped barrels shoot just fine and RB rifling won't cause blown patches.

Have you checked the patches on your first two "good" shots? Are they intact or blown?

What exactly do your blown patches look like? (i.e. pictures would be helpful).

Only thing I can think of is a bore problem. I did have a custom build with a swamped barrel that had to go back to the local builder because he cut the barrel tennon too deep into the thin part of the barrel and actually created a hole in one of the grooves. Didn't find the problem until I pulled the barrel and found the scorch marks. Once I got the new barrel it shot fine.

 

[doubletrouble]

I'm getting close, shot best group so far and it was with a thicker pants material with my beeswax-lanolin lube with a Wonder Wad under patched ball. The load was 110 grs of Swiss 3F, a .575 dia. ball and this patch. 90 grs of Swiss without a wad didn't blow the patch but didn't shoot very well. The Swiss gives me the fastest ignition. I have ordered some 2F Swiss to try. The only issue now is the load that shoots doesn't shoot to my sights. Not a big issue but the rear peep is already way to one side which still makes me wonder if there is an issue with the barrel. I can live with the last group I shot and making a new sight is no problem either. I'm just glad I'm figuring it out.

 

[varsity07840]

If your bore is .58 and you have round bottom grooves that are .016 deep, you need a .62 cal. wad if your intent is to protect the patch. A 24 gauge
wad will not fill the grooves and will still get blow by. I don't like wonder wads for that purpose because they are too thin and flair out of the grooves under the pressure of the seated patched ball. I like a lightly lubed fiber wad around 1/2" thick if patch burn/blow out is an issue. My humble opinion.

 

[timothy prouty]

HEY did you try120 instead of110 With out the wad?

 

[kurts]

Try some pure neats foot oil for the lube, I use the patch a tad wet.

 

[doubletrouble]

I have tried a lubed 1/2 thick fiber wad and it did work but not as well as the Wonder Wad. I do have some 1/4 felt 12 ga wads that I might punch out to be large enough to fill the groove diameter. I read somewhere someone used 20 ga felt wads.
I have not tried over 110 grs but might try upping the charge.
I've tried every type of lube I have including Mr. Flintlock's which smells like Murphy's oil soap. I do have some Neatsfoot I can try. The lube I use made from beeswax and lanolin has worked for me for many years but it is sticky and sometimes I think patch stays on ball too long after leaving the barrel. Paraffin and lanolin actually might work better. I used this before I got a good supply of beeswax.
I still have a little work to do but I feel like I've almost figured it out.

 

[CrossXstix]

Lanolin is some sticky stuff, also in using felt wads, a groove sized when fired under a round ball folds up around the ball and is no longer groove sized.

 

[timothy prouty]

HEY did you try to dry ball to see if any rough spot in the bore?

 

[roadgrader]

Have you tried 40-50 grains of corn meal on top of the powder? I have had good luck that way.Stacey

 

[timothy prouty]

HEY can we see a picture of the barrel out of the stock because it looks like the key is high in the stock

 

[doubletrouble]

It has a swamped barrel so middle key is higher than front and rear keys. They all are in tenons and level with bottom flat.
I tried neatsfoot oil today and was scared I'd stuck a ball, had to hammer the darn thing down. I won't be trying that again. Same patch with my lube can be rammed home with one hand and little force.
I have tried as low as 60 grs of powder but accuracy was poor. I've tried 60 thru 120 grs and the only load that shot ok was 110 grs of Swiss 3F but I have to have something under the patch to protect it. Shot again this morning but could not shoot as good a group as yesterday. I'm going to try and find some thicker patch material so I don't need a wad under the patch.
Have not tried a dry ball yet to see if patches are cut before firing.

 

[Grimord]

110 grains of 3f seems alittle steep to me. The pressure curve must be really up there. I think you will have better luck with 2f. Less pressure, and maybe no burned out patches.