58 vs 54?

[SDSmlf]

Hey ol pal, been awhile since we have corresponded. I have a Hawken like you described. So, Mr. Holt can convert my rifle from a .45 cal to a .54 or .58?

Yep, as long as you have a barrel that is 1” across the flats. A barrel that is 15/16” across the flats he may possibly go to 54 caliber, depending on depth of screw holes. You would have to call him. Here is the latest contact info I have on him, though it has been a while since I contacted him and I know he moved the shop at some point. Address may not be current (I have two addresses in my contact info), but phone number is good.

Bobby Hoyt
Freischutz Shop
2379 Mt Hope Rd Fairfield
PA 17320
ph# 717-642-6696

 

[Hawk78]

Yep, as long as you have a barrel that is 1” across the flats. A barrel that is 15/16” across the flats he may possibly go to 54 caliber, depending on depth of screw holes. You would have to call him. Here is the latest contact info I have on him, though it has been a while since I contacted him and I know he moved the shop at some point. Address may not be current (I have two addresses in my contact info), but phone number is good.

Bobby Hoyt
Freischutz Shop
2379 Mt Hope Rd Fairfield
PA 17320
ph# 717-642-6696

Thanks buddy. How have you been fairing? Done any skeet shooting or hunting with your side x side lately?

 

[tenngun]

I don’t THINK there is anything a .58 will do that a .54 won’t to North America game.
I THINK .58 was popular because it was two dozen ball to the pound, twice a .44, four times a .36, half of a twelve bore
I THINK a .54 was popular because it cast two ball to the ounce.
The important thing is what’s more fun then having both?

 

[Hawk78]

I don’t THINK there is anything a .58 will do that a .54 won’t to North America game.
I THINK .58 was popular because it was two dozen ball to the pound, twice a .44, four times a .36, half of a twelve bore
I THINK a .54 was popular because it cast two ball to the ounce.
The important thing is what’s more fun then having both?

Yep, it is definitely very addictive, lol, but sure beats alcohol and drugs! I am contacting Mr. Hoyt tomorrow {and go ahead and hire him} about boring my .45 cal T/C hawkens into a .54 because of the flatter trajectory, less lead needed, and really best suited for white tail deer. Even be able to compete in the "big bore" aggregates with it. I am also considering purchasing a 1863 Traditions Zouave .58? Any suggestions about this gun? I can get a kit from Deer Creek onsale for $822, only 2 left in stock. Yep, believe I best jump on that first thing in the morning.

 

[SDSmlf]

Thanks buddy. How have you been fairing? Done any skeet shooting or hunting with your side x side lately?

Not shooting much skeet - I shoot right handed but I am left eye dominant. Struggle with some of the crossing shoots. Trap, I can shoot with minimal difficulty. Working on shooting my double left handed. After a couple rounds of skeet left handed, almost as good as I am right handed. Showing promise. Might be old, but not too old to learn.

Are you going to move on Mr. Hoyt rebore yours? I have three of his TC rebores in the safe right now. Love them.

 

[SDSmlf]

Yep, it is definitely very addictive, lol, but sure beats alcohol and drugs! I am contacting Mr. Hoyt tomorrow {and go ahead and hire him} about boring my .45 cal T/C hawkens into a .54 because of the flatter trajectory, less lead needed, and really best suited for white tail deer. Even be able to compete in the "big bore" aggregates with it. I am also considering purchasing a 1863 Traditions Zouave .58? Any suggestions about this gun? I can get a kit from Deer Creek onsale for $822, only 2 left in stock. Yep, believe I best jump on that first thing in the morning.

Guess I was typing while you were posting.

 

[Hawk78]

Not shooting much skeet - I shoot right handed but I am left eye dominant. Struggle with some of the crossing shoots. Trap, I can shoot with minimal difficulty. Working on shooting my double left handed. After a couple rounds of skeet left handed, almost as good as I am right handed. Showing promise. Might be old, but not too old to learn.

Are you going to move on Mr. Hoyt rebore yours? I have three of his TC rebores in the safe right now. Love them.

definitely buddy, because that is just awesome. I didn't even realize this could be done. And I am glad to hear your success of shooting left handed, cool beans! Maybe come down next fall and let me take you on a dove hunt. got plenty of fields, decoys, and got pretty good at coordinating good and successful hunts!

 

[tenngun]

The Zouave is a fine gun. I think it was the very first repo made for the centennial of the late unpleasantness between North and the south. I think Turner Kirkland of Dixie Gunworks got the first imported.
The gun made to shoot a fat minie with moderate charges. Service charge was 60-65 grains 2f. Val Forgett of navy arms busted the load to 110 grains and hunted Africa, taking zebra, lion and Cape buffalo with one.
You have to get a minie with a thick skirt to handle that charge, many will blow out at about 80 grains.
However even with the service charge it’s plenty of power for most American game.
Drawbacks are it’s a combat gun, from a time when the gun was still a spear that could shoot. It’s very robust. A real Hawken might out weigh a Zouave a bit but balances and fits a shooter better. Most civilian guns are more graceful.
It’s been a big seller for more then seventy five years, must be a reason.
I’ve owned two, but never warmed up to one, that’s just a matter of taste.

 

[Hawk78]

The Zouave is a fine gun. I think it was the very first repo made for the centennial of the late unpleasantness between North and the south. I think Turner Kirkland of Dixie Gunworks got the first imported.
The gun made to shoot a fat minie with moderate charges. Service charge was 60-65 grains 2f. Val Forgett of navy arms busted the load to 110 grains and hunted Africa, taking zebra, lion and Cape buffalo with one.
You have to get a minie with a thick skirt to handle that charge, many will blow out at about 80 grains.
However even with the service charge it’s plenty of power for most American game.
Drawbacks are it’s a combat gun, from a time when the gun was still a spear that could shoot. It’s very robust. A real Hawken might out weigh a Zouave a bit but balances and fits a shooter better. Most civilian guns are more graceful.
It’s been a big seller for more then seventy five years, must be a reason.
I’ve owned two, but never warmed up to one, that’s just a matter of taste.

Thanks tenngun, do you mind telling me what minnie is best to use, and can I get a mold for it? And what was your favorite load? At Deer Creek products, I can purchase a .575 rb mold, if it shoots decent rb groups [for deer shots] up to 125? Or am I better off with which minie? Thanks sir.

 

[Hawk78]

Not shooting much skeet - I shoot right handed but I am left eye dominant. Struggle with some of the crossing shoots. Trap, I can shoot with minimal difficulty. Working on shooting my double left handed. After a couple rounds of skeet left handed, almost as good as I am right handed. Showing promise. Might be old, but not too old to learn.

Are you going to move on Mr. Hoyt rebore yours? I have three of his TC rebores in the safe right now. Love them.

SDSmlf: what is your load for your Hoyt .54? And your .58 if you don't mind buddy.

 

[Hawk78]

You can't really "overkill" anything, so a while a 58 certainly isn't necessary to kill deer sized animals, it's fine to use one...or even a 62.

Everyone has their own ability to handle recoil, but the stock shape and especially the buttplate shape can certainly impact how much of it you feel. I built a fullstock Hawken in .58. and with the load it liked, which was 100 grains of 2F with a tightly patched .575 ball, it definitely had a push which was increased due to the rather narrow and curved buttplate of a Hawken. My .62 early Virginia with a wide and flat buttplate with the same load is mild in comparison.

It's not hard at all to find whatever you need to go with a .58. Many of our fine online muzzleloading supply shops carry anything you would need for them. Track of the Wolf is a good source, but there are many, many others.

I do think that the number of production manufacturers making 58's is more limited than .54 and down calibers. Pedersoli has a few models...The Kodiak double rifle is one although that's a fast twist. Or if you like the look of military rifles, they have the Cook & Brother or the Mississippi.

I know you said roundball, but my Pedersoli Frontier .54 with a 1-66 twist shot patched round ball OR the Hornady Great Plains 425 grain bullet with great accuracy. So does my Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken. That bullet would be great elk medicine. Or you could probably have a .54 rebored by Bobby Hoyt to .58 with proper twist and deep round grooves for roundball. Quite a few options to think about.

Yes sir, very informative stuff here.

 

[tenngun]

I used the 460 grain old style two grove, on 60 grains and got four inch groups from a rest at one hundred yards, About two inches high.
I never shot game with one but army testing with that load sent a ball through four inches of pine at three hundred yards, so I would think 125 it would turn Bambi french
I shot them as they dropped from the mold. If you sized any minie for a tight fit it should shrink your groups
Muzzle velocity is subsonic about a thousand feet per second, but still doing over eight at a hundred yards and has something in the order of a thousand foot pounds

 

[tenngun]

Just saw Track of the wolf has one about $750 right now

 

[nkbj]

Love .54 and .58. Love the .62 half stock. Love the .69 Fremont.
Wish I still had a lake full of turtles.

 

[Art Caputo]

Having shot and owning several ML rifles from 40 -54 cal, over a year ago I ordered a Kibler Colonial in both 5x and 58cal. I’m exclusively a PLRB shooter and will say that I have been consumed with the the performance of this rifle with its 58cal, GM, straight cut barrel. Using 80gr of FFFG behind a .570 roundball/.015” patch, lubed with Mink Oil. With the bigger bore/lighter barrel, balance is near perfect, accuracy superb, and recoil not much more noticeable then my 50/54’s. The difference in trajectory from the 50/54 is about an inch at 125 yards with killing power and blood trails with deer proving it to be a superb hunting rifle particularly for the longer shots, or for use on larger game. I wish I had tried one sooner!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have been having fun playing with 50 and 54 percussion rifles,..., I see that 58s seem to be pretty uncommon, but since I do hunt elk ..., I was wondering if it would be worth keeping an eye out for a 58 round ball rifle. ..., Does any manufacturer currently make 58s that might be suitable for range/hunting?

Why not go bigger?
How About a .72 caliber caplock rifle... ???


Pedersoli Kodiak Safari .72

It's suitable for round ball with a 1:75 twist rate.

LD

 

[Ragged Edge]

My english percussion 11-bore double shoots a .728 PLRB that weighs 570 grains. I chose the ball weight to mirror the .500 Nitro Express bullet weight. Twist is in the neighborhood of 1 in 72-75. Pity, but I can't shoot it anymore because of retina issues. It is no fun from a bench, but offhand it is not too bad due to mild recoil velocity with 140 grains of GOEX 2-F behind the ball.

 

[Okie Hog]

I think that a 54 New Englander bartel would be a great candidate for a Bobby Hoyt bore out to 58 in a 1 in 66 twist.

Had a roached .54 New Englander barrel bored to .58 and rifled with rounded groves by Mr. Hoyt. It's much more accurate than i am.

 

[Togo]

I have a TC 58 Big Bore, it is extremely accurate with 90 grains of T7 and a .015 patch and round ball. It's taken a few deer with ease, it's now a safe queen since I have been using a couple TC percussion and flint 54 Renegades and TC 50's

 

[SDSmlf]

SDSmlf: what is your load for your Hoyt .54? And your .58 if you don't mind buddy.

Do not have any Hoyt 54 calibers right now. Have a couple of 58s (one each flint and percussion) with his 1-60 radius radius bottom rifling that shoots lights out when I can clearly see the sights and target (less often lately) over 80-90 grains of Swiss 3F with 10oz canvas that measures .022” thick, .0165” compressed, at least the way I measure it. Here is a sight-in target for new sights on the flintlock (already had the load figured out). It was one of those good days. Mr Hoyt’s barrels are more accurate that me every day.