A bag question for the PC stitch counters

[Artificer]

Great post! Thank you! Had no idea sewing machines were that late.

Here is another question since we are on the subject…would a Professionally made bag have the appearance of being much closer to a machine made bag just because of the nature of a pros work? Even spacing of holes etc?

Trying to picture in my minds eye the difference between Home made (which back then was Way better than our version of home made because of their average skill level) and Shop made. Was the difference not in the quality of the work but in the standardization of design and materials?

Good questions.

I am not a professionally trained leatherworker and had to learn many of the things in my early years by mistakes or happy circumstances (as when I first learned to do proper saddle stitching) or things I sort of dreamed up along the way. This until I found mentors who greatly helped me.

In the early 1980's, I visited the Cordwainer's Shop at Colonial Williamsburg primarily to learn how to make what is called a "butt stitch" to make sword and bayonet scabbards, as I could not figure out how to do it myself. BTW, a Cordwainer was not just a "shoe maker," but rather a highly skilled tradesman whose work went into true artistry on perfectly fitting shoes/boots to their customers. They took or made roughed out wooden "lasts" and after carefully measuring a customer's foot, carved or added things to the last so by sewing the leather around them, it matched the shoes to the customer's feet and even each individual foot when needed. They would then mark and save the last that fit the customer, to make him/her more shoes/boots in the future.

One Lady Volunteer at CW had been forced to wear orthopedic shoes for most of her life, but after the Cordwainer made her pair of shoes, she declared they fit her feet better and were far better for her feet than any orthopedic shoe she ever had. BTW, both in the period and still today, one does NOT refer to a Cordwainer as a "Cobbler" because Cobblers were never trained in the art form of truly fitting shoes and basically just repaired shoes that Cordwainers make. Now, Cobblers in the period did make plain shoes, country shoes and slave shoes; but the fit and finish was nowhere near the quality of the Cordwainer's Art.

Remember the Leather factory that made shoes and boots I mentioned in Norfolk, VA in 1747? The Master of the shop MAY have been a true Cordwainer and may not have been, we just don't know. With the shoes and boots they made, you sort of fit your feet to what they had, rather than having a set of shoes made as well as possible to fit your feet. (Pretty much the way we still do it today when most of us buy modern shoes.) They no doubt used cut out wood patterns for each piece of leather to construct the size of shoe/boot and cut the leather to those sizes and sewed them up. However, they still used good saddle stitching techniques to sew the leather and other finishing techniques.

So they had the technology and techniques to have set up such a factory system for Shot Pouches/Bags, but there weren't enough folks who could pay enough to have made it worthwhile. Therefore most professionally made Shot Pouches/Bags were what they called "Bespoke Work" or what we might call custom order, even if the bag was very plain.

The Cordwainer I referred to earlier informed me that once they came out with machine stitching, one of the "selling points" was the stitching "looked as neat and even, as though it had been made by a Master Leather worker." However, machine stitching is far inferior to hand saddle stitching when the article is put to hard use. I learned this as a Police Reservist in the late 1970's.

Back then, most cops were using leather gun belts/holsters that were machine stitched. I was one of the very few Reservists who the real Cops actually wanted to ride with them and back them up. One Cop who became a very good friend got out of the cruiser one time and I noticed the pieces of the back of his gun belt slid apart. That sure surprised me. When sliding in and out of the seats, it abraded the machine stitching and once a machine stitch breaks, a whole line of stitches can and will come apart. With hand done saddle stitching, one can break one out of three stitches and the stitching will still hold it together. I asked him why he never got it fixed and he told me there was no cobbler or shoe repairer or anyone to do it anywhere around the city or county he knew of. I saddle stitched it back together for him. Matter of fact, I wound up repairing more than a half dozen such gun belts for other real Cops on the force, once the word got around.

More coming, but I have to give my arthritic fingers a rest from typing.

Gus

 

[LongWalker]

The earliest factory in America I know of that made leather items was set up in Norfolk, VA in 1747. They had 17 workers and that would have been seen as a good size factory even by English standards of the day. They made "ready made" shoes and boots in various sizes. However, I don't think they made commercial Shot Pouches/Bags for civilians, though they of course had the skills to have done so. It is possible they made military Cartouche/Cartridge Boxes and Pouches under contract during the FIW, though.

We also have to separate "factory" from "commercial production". There are records of bags bought in quantity for resale, at least in a few cases from saddlers or harness makers--but these guys weren't factories. Good point in a later post about cordwainers, but I've never seen commercial-scale production of bags from a cordwainer (which makes sense, they could make more money making shoes, etc), but as the Getz bag showed, their work could be fantastic!

I'm not in to the PC HC stuff, are there actually people counting stitches on shooting bags?

"Stitch counter" is generally a pejorative (and this is NOT how Brazosland meant it) applied to people who are concerned with doing things in as PC a manner as they can by folks who typically buy something then try to rationalize a way to "make it fit". For example (real statement here), "well, you can't tell it is stainless, and maybe a voyager had been a sailor and bought a sword while visiting Japan".

Juried events are one thing, juried organizations are another. Most such orgs require a bibliography citing references of what you carry--not just a "hunting pouch" but showing the style and manner of construction are of the period--those are likely the only folks who would care about minor PC errors. And even there, some groups and some folks are "pickier" than others.

One more thought, if your ancestor came through what is now Louisiana or Texas towards the Santa Fe trail and had his pouch made locally, it likely would have had at least some Spanish influence, as they already had a long tradition of making leather goods by then.

You'd think so Gus, but in >100 Texas museums and private collections, I saw no bags that seemed to reflect Spanish/Mexican influence (other than possibly the use of rolled-leather buttons). Most bags appeared to be commercial production or farm made, even though some of them were demonstrably made by the local Hispanic population. I have patterns taken from two datable Texas bags, but they don't reflect what folks want today--no Mexican influence, no "Lone Stars", and no Sheridan-style tooling of the leather. That seems to come in post-1875.

Re your question on the quality of the work vs the standardization of design, the answer is both. The professional could afford to buy specialized tools and had been trained in how to use them for best results. Standardization of design was (and still is) a cost saving practice - easier to make 10 alike than 10 different - patterns, jigs & maximum utilization of materials all work with standardized designs.

To continue from Coot's excellent point, folks making patterns for quantity production seem to have gone with something similar to the "common man" approach suggested by many reenactors today. Strap widths, means of attachment, general size and shape of the bag, closure, etc, all seem to be within certain ranges. You could design a good bag around the common factors and style of construction (even if they seem "wrong" to us, like inserted into the flap and sewn across), if the bag was zapped back in time 150-250 years, no one would see anything unusual about it. You can't say the same thing about many of the bags sold today.

 

[Artificer]

We also have to separate "factory" from "commercial production". There are records of bags bought in quantity for resale, at least in a few cases from saddlers or harness makers--but these guys weren't factories. Good point in a later post about cordwainers, but I've never seen commercial-scale production of bags from a cordwainer (which makes sense, they could make more money making shoes, etc), but as the Getz bag showed, their work could be fantastic!


"Stitch counter" is generally a pejorative (and this is NOT how Brazosland meant it) applied to people who are concerned with doing things in as PC a manner as they can by folks who typically buy something then try to rationalize a way to "make it fit". For example (real statement here), "well, you can't tell it is stainless, and maybe a voyager had been a sailor and bought a sword while visiting Japan".

Juried events are one thing, juried organizations are another. Most such orgs require a bibliography citing references of what you carry--not just a "hunting pouch" but showing the style and manner of construction are of the period--those are likely the only folks who would care about minor PC errors. And even there, some groups and some folks are "pickier" than others.


You'd think so Gus, but in >100 Texas museums and private collections, I saw no bags that seemed to reflect Spanish/Mexican influence (other than possibly the use of rolled-leather buttons). Most bags appeared to be commercial production or farm made, even though some of them were demonstrably made by the local Hispanic population. I have patterns taken from two datable Texas bags, but they don't reflect what folks want today--no Mexican influence, no "Lone Stars", and no Sheridan-style tooling of the leather. That seems to come in post-1875.


To continue from Coot's excellent point, folks making patterns for quantity production seem to have gone with something similar to the "common man" approach suggested by many reenactors today. Strap widths, means of attachment, general size and shape of the bag, closure, etc, all seem to be within certain ranges. You could design a good bag around the common factors and style of construction (even if they seem "wrong" to us, like inserted into the flap and sewn across), if the bag was zapped back in time 150-250 years, no one would see anything unusual about it. You can't say the same thing about many of the bags sold today.

Hi Longwalker,

Great discussion!

The point I was trying to make about Cordwainers (and I didn't do a good job of it) was there were some Shot Pouches/Bags in the 18th century made to that level of quality/artistry, though admittedly only for the more well off and therefore few and far between.

I agree that Cordwainers would not have made Shot Pouches for the reasons you mentioned. However, a Saddler would only have made Shot Pouches when he had no bespoke saddles or other more expensive horse/carriage tack to make, because they also paid more than Shot Pouches. Still, Shot Pouches earned them income when they did not have more lucrative bespoke work, so it was good "fill in" work. (I've gone over some 18th century gunsmith's ledgers and laughed when I read entries for fixing pots and pans and some other in sundry items, I did not think of before.)

I would love to go to all the museums in Texas you have. I've only been in Texas four times and most times just going through, but I had a near religious experience when I visited the Alamo.

As to Spanish Influence, I'm going off some of what our deceased forum member Chuck Burrows posted in the past about 18th and early 19th century shot pouches. He posted a few pics of originals that had leather lace construction and even with the lace wrapped around the edges of the seams. That was definitely different than the English or German traditions. That and some impressments made on the flap and front of the exposed pouch that were of Spanish Influence/Culture.

Gus

 

[Brokennock]

I'm not a reenactor, and I don't do living History anymore because even when your 100% correct and your outfit and gear is perfect , know it alls will pick you apart with wrong information

I wouldn't worry too much about H/C ness, people back then used whatever they had or could get. Anything that could have been made at that time was used

When people get too hung up on H/C stuff I tell them, don't forget that Napoleon used air rifles too. 100% fact. No one ever believes me.

There is always an outlier to every period

I also saw a flintlock revolver at the Smithsonian

So?

If someone wants to be as historically correct as possible,,, who are you to tell them they shouldn't?
If that's what the man wants to do, and it is whether question was asked, then that is what he should do.
And if you have information that would actually be helpful, then be helpful....
Saying you wouldn't worry about it doesn't offer anything to people who are making the effort. If you don't appreciate it, fine.......

There are no rules to HC/PC as long as the materials were available back then and the method used to make them was correct.

There certainly are rules to hc/PC.
The materials were available to make a leather "biker" style jacket, does that make it acceptable? The materials and design were available for a toga,,, does that mean some of Simon Kenton's associates wore them?

 

[Brokennock]

Why do folks with no interest in historical accuracy or reenacting even bother with this section of the forum?

I have no interest in cannons and not much interest in caplock guns,,, maybe I should start going into those sections and telling the folks there not to bother with what their interests are.

 

[Brokennock]

That's more useful info, thanks.
Very helpful.

 

[LongWalker]

In Robert Campbell's accounts from 1832 (online here: Memorandum ), there is a list of goods bought from Thornton Grimsley in St. Louis (primarily known for being a saddle maker). I copied the list below because it shows the diversity of products Grimsley was selling. (I've always suspected Grimsley used some of this to train apprentices and keep them busy when times were slow.)

Prices are kind of interesting too: $.75 for a "common shot bag", and $1.50 for a "best quality" shot bag, and 37 1/2 cents for a belt and scabbard.

​		Bought of Thornton Grimsley
1​	Spanish Saddle		$10.00​
​	Repairing Bridle		.37 1/2​
1​	full plated Snaffle		5.00​
5​	common Shot Bags		3.75​
1​	Best quality			1.50​
1​	Doz Leather Surcingles		1.50​	27.12 1/2​
1/2​	" Red painted Belts 6$		3.00​
1​	pr Saddle Bags		3.50​
1​	" Martingales			2.00​
5​	Belts & Scabbards 37 1/2		1.87 1/2​
1​	pr Holsters			6.00​
2​	powder sacks 2$		4.00​	20.37 1/2​
1​	Surcingles			1.00​
1​	Halter			0.75​
​	making Gun Covers		0.75​
5​	Spanish Saddles 450		22.50​
10​	pack Saddles 225c		22.50​
10​	pack straps 75		7.50​	55.00​

 

[French Colonial]

In Robert Campbell's accounts from 1832 (online here: Memorandum ), there is a list of goods bought from Thornton Grimsley in St. Louis (primarily known for being a saddle maker). I copied the list below because it shows the diversity of products Grimsley was selling. (I've always suspected Grimsley used some of this to train apprentices and keep them busy when times were slow.)

Prices are kind of interesting too: $.75 for a "common shot bag", and $1.50 for a "best quality" shot bag, and 37 1/2 cents for a belt and scabbard.

​		Bought of Thornton Grimsley
1​	Spanish Saddle		$10.00​
​	Repairing Bridle		.37 1/2​
1​	full plated Snaffle		5.00​
5​	common Shot Bags		3.75​
1​	Best quality			1.50​
1​	Doz Leather Surcingles		1.50​	27.12 1/2​
1/2​	" Red painted Belts 6$		3.00​
1​	pr Saddle Bags		3.50​
1​	" Martingales			2.00​
5​	Belts & Scabbards 37 1/2		1.87 1/2​
1​	pr Holsters			6.00​
2​	powder sacks 2$		4.00​	20.37 1/2​
1​	Surcingles			1.00​
1​	Halter			0.75​
​	making Gun Covers		0.75​
5​	Spanish Saddles 450		22.50​
10​	pack Saddles 225c		22.50​
10​	pack straps 75		7.50​	55.00​

EXCELLENT!!!!!!

This is exactly the type of information that this forum needs, now we do not know exactly what those bags AND GUNCOVERS! look like but we do know that a saddler was making them and so we can assume they were very well made, thank you Longwalker.

Wrong time period for me or I would have to have a "red painted belt" Very cool!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Was it? There were poor, craftsman back, then not everybody was an artist not everybody was a craftsman. Homemade could look like crapola and be crapola. They did what they did because they needed it and if you wasn’t perfect well used what you had. Just a thought.

I don’t know. But everyone back then sewed…the vast majority of men I know don’t even own a needle. But then again, that assumption on my part may be dead wrong. That’s what I love about this hobby, we can’t assume anything.

In our modern age we are so accustomed to not having to make anything that what we now consider to be exceptional person skill may have been an established norm back then.

YES to both answers...
The problem is..., so FEW of the actual rifle bags survived, for close examination, that we don't know that much about the bags used in several historic "periods".

A bag might be well made, and meant to last....,

A bag might be "thrown together" because it was immediately needed....,

A bag also might be "thrown together" because the guy was a hide hunter, and when this bag gets worn, he'll just shoot another deer, and instead of processing the hide "green", he will finish it up with brain tanning, and make a replacement bag, like he always does...

So IF the bag maker was a leather artisan, a cordwainer AND if so, did he have the tools, the materials, and the time? Just because it's a crude bag, does that mean the maker didn't know any better, or does that mean all the guy had was an awl, some leather, and a knife, and that was the best that could be done as he needed it soon? Nobody knows....,

When it comes to "us"..., So it's a hand sewn bag.....

ALL of mine are hand sewn, because I got a leather needle for my machine, but even when my machine (an antique Singer Spartan) is set for widest possible stitches, the stitching is too fine and it cuts the leather, instead of sewing it. So I use glover's needles and a saddle stitch.

I like to use synthetic aka artificial sinew, because it lasts a good long time..., does that invalidate the bag, since the stuff I'm pretty sure is waxed nylon or polyester?

I have been making sinew in small amounts for about a year now, and I think I have enough to use it to sew a bag or two..., but more of it is beef not deer, and cow sinew likely would not have been what they used, or IF they were from a cattle area, mine comes from angus beef, and their cows were English Reds....,

So for us, a lot depends not only of "did it exist", but also "what was actually available", and finally, "does it matter to the user".... I know a young man who takes the hide and the sinew from the deer, and brain tans the hide into leather, then makes the bag, and the strap. His are very "correct", but so time consuming, that he won't do them except for himself and for an occasional gift.

LD

 

[Rawhide67]

I used it as a joke about being Period Correct to attract attention.

Somehow I pictured lines of people at the entrance to a modern rondevous, directing traffic....
Go see Bob to get the stitching on your bag counted.
Go see Bill to make sure your skivvies are acceptable.
And John will check your straight razor and resulting shave to see if they can be approved.

Only ever been to one rondevous and my pop up camper was allowed for accomodations. Hard tomooctuee the serious ones.

 

[Artificer]

Great post! Thank you! Had no idea sewing machines were that late.

Here is another question since we are on the subject…would a Professionally made bag have the appearance of being much closer to a machine made bag just because of the nature of a pros work? Even spacing of holes etc?

Trying to picture in my minds eye the difference between Home made (which back then was Way better than our version of home made because of their average skill level) and Shop made. Was the difference not in the quality of the work but in the standardization of design and materials?

OK, more on how to tell the difference between a homemade and professionally made bag. However, there can/will always be some caveats for each thing mentioned.

Some folks suggest the use of linen thread to sew up the pouch is only or mostly done by professionals. Well, that leaves out the fact one of the first crops planted by new settlers was flax into the early 19th century, so they could spin/weave linen cloth for their own shirts/breeches and blouses/skirts for the ladies. Homemade linen thread is not as uniform as commercial thread with a certain number of cords, though, so that would be the real distinction most times as frontier folk would probably not trade/spend money on commercial thread.

While on the subject of thread, the first settlers in Ky arrived too late in the year to plant a crop of flax. So they got creative. They took the fibrous inner core of nettles stems and dried/separated and spun that for thread. You wouldn't find that on a professionally made pouch/bag. Grin. Home makers could have used other plants to make their thread as well as using REAL sinew. Now there were some other types of materials used to make commercial thread, but again it would have come in pretty uniform cordage.

As a side note, those same first settlers in Ky used Bison/Buffalo "wool" to spin and make into stockings, hand and head coverings at least for their first year, as well.

Generally speaking, if the stitching is pretty much the same length between stitches and it was neatly saddle stitched, that would show at least some leatherworking skill by the maker and probably professionally done. However, remember when I mentioned even professionals sometimes stitched by eye on less expensive items? That stitching would not have been quite as exacting a distance between stitches, but would probably still look better than the majority of homemade pouches.

Sometimes stitching that is exposed may be a sign of being homemade, particularly if whip stitched around the outside of the seams, as that allows easier abrasion and damage to the stitches in many cases. However, if the pouch was wet formed like the pouch below and while the the stitching is exposed, it still is a professionally made pouch.

More coming,
Gus

 

[andy52]

When people get too hung up on H/C stuff I tell them, don't forget that Napoleon used air rifles too. 100% fact. No one ever believes me.

Seems odd to me that anyone that evens know a little US history couldn't figure that out. Lewis & Clark had one with them on their trip.

 

[andy52]

I like to use synthetic aka artificial sinew, because it lasts a good long time..., does that invalidate the bag, since the stuff I'm pretty sure is waxed nylon or polyester?

Yes and no, if it were a truly juried event, you might get called on it. I've made many bags in the time I've been doing this, people have asked me about the thread many times. I just tell them the truth, no it's not linen or cotton thread but I won't make you something that won't last your lifetime. Linen or cotton just won't do that.

 

[BruceHuxford]

Well, traditional from South Carolina we carry our knives on the back of our pouch and the blade being between 4 and 6 inches in length with 5 being the average. Of course, we also use buckles to attach our powder horns to our bags too, so we might be a little touched in the head

 

[BruceHuxford]

From what I had learned is the seam is roughly a 1/4 of and inch wide with the stitching roughly 1/8 of an inch apart, if that helps any

 

[BruceHuxford]

You're absolutely right about the thread, over time it will break and you will have to repair it somehow. I know I did

 

[Brokennock]

Yes, natural thread will more than likely break someday. So? Thread broke then too. Isn't that part of the experience? Isn't that why so many more people in earlier times,,, not just 200 years ago but even up to 60 years ago,,, had so many more skills than folks do now? To include some sewing skills.
It's also why a good saddle stitch is the correct stitch to use. Not, the lock stitch created by own of those easy-stitch stitching awls or a machine. There is nothing "lock" about that stitch. A saddle stitch won't unravel as much, if at all, and is pretty easy to repair.

There are plusses to period gear made of period materials. There are also negatives. Both are part of the experience. Both might/can/will change the way one does things in the field and forest, or in the fort acts of daily living compared to doing those things in modern clothing with modern gear. Part of the experience.

 

[BruceHuxford]

Brother you are right

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

As to thread, a maker I know uses only the synthetic thread on his pouches so that they can never be mistaken or sold for an original. One time he had made a pouch on commission. Four years later he was going through a museum and saw his pouch, now much aged, worn, antiqued. He went to he musuem director and told him what he had and that if he (the director) would just let him he could show an identifying mark on the inside of the pouch that would prove he made it. The director refused because he had no interest in proving his artifact was a fake. So from then on the maker always used synthetic thread so this could never happen again.

 

[Artificer]

My fur-trade persona is actually a family member and the time frame I try to focus on is 1805-1825. Not a small time gap, but not massive either.

Certainly machine sewn bags were more common particularly later in that period and I have an early 1805 set of gear, and a later 1825 set of gear, as I believe my ancestor was likely in the early runs down the Sante Fe Trail.

Both of these pouches are dated to the late 18th century/early 19th century, though the one on the right is almost a classic shape homemade pouch and would be great for your earlier period gear, if you would like to go that way.

Original homemade pouches of the plainer sort were often made from one length of leather with the bottom third folded up and sewn to form the bag, or began as an "L" shape with the short leg of the leather folded back over the bottom of the long leg and sewn to form the bag. In both cases, only two lines of stitching were required to sew the bag shut either on the sides as in the first example or the bottom and one side in the "L" shape leather piece.

This pouch was also made from a "Hair On" hide, which they believed better protected the contents from rain and snow. Now this feature was not on every plain pouch, though.

The leather strap on this pouch looks like it was made from a piece of cowhide. It also may have had a woven strap of some kind, if the leather to make the strap was not available. Anyone could make a simple loom to make their own strap, as documented in the quote below.

"Joseph Doddridge in his "Notes on the settlement and Indian wars of the western parts of Virginia and Pennsylvania, from 1763 to 1783" talks about as a young lad, he made some good spare money by using a simple loom made from a board to weave many belt sashes and knee sashes [garters] for use with leggings and then sold/traded them to others."

The flap on this pouch looks like the maker may have done some cutting to shape the bottom of the flap, but often on homemade pouches, they just left the leather in the rough or natural condition it came. However, a rough bottom flap did not automatically mean a homemade pouch as another original and possibly professional pouch below had such a rough end flap.

The flap on the next pouch below is rather rough, though it seems to have been made by a professional.

The banding around the seams and the quality of the stitching on the above pouch, shows at least some leatherworking training of the maker.


Gus