A bag question for the PC stitch counters

[Brokennock]

Both of these pouches are dated to the late 18th century/early 19th century, though the one on the right is almost a classic shape homemade pouch and would be great for your earlier period gear, if you would like to go that way.

View attachment 201126

Original homemade pouches of the plainer sort were often made from one length of leather with the bottom third folded up and sewn to form the bag, or began as an "L" shape with the short leg of the leather folded back over the bottom of the long leg and sewn to form the bag. In both cases, only two lines of stitching were required to sew the bag shut either on the sides as in the first example or the bottom and one side in the "L" shape leather piece.

This pouch was also made from a "Hair On" hide, which they believed better protected the contents from rain and snow. Now this feature was not on every plain pouch, though.

The leather strap on this pouch looks like it was made from a piece of cowhide. It also may have had a woven strap of some kind, if the leather to make the strap was not available. Anyone could make a simple loom to make their own strap, as documented in the quote below.

"Joseph Doddridge in his "Notes on the settlement and Indian wars of the western parts of Virginia and Pennsylvania, from 1763 to 1783" talks about as a young lad, he made some good spare money by using a simple loom made from a board to weave many belt sashes and knee sashes [garters] for use with leggings and then sold/traded them to others."

The flap on this pouch looks like the maker may have done some cutting to shape the bottom of the flap, but often on homemade pouches, they just left the leather in the rough or natural condition it came. However, a rough bottom flap did not automatically mean a homemade pouch as another original and possibly professional pouch below had such a rough end flap.

The flap on the next pouch below is rather rough, though it seems to have been made by a professional.

View attachment 201206

The banding around the seams and the quality of the stitching on the above pouch, shows at least some leatherworking training of the maker.


Gus

Could/would a pouch have been made by someone in the trade (a corwainer or saddler maybe) for someone who sought a well made but cheaper pouch and so used less refined pieces of leather with less finishing? Could the above piece have been made of a leftover piece of leather that included that "natural" edge for "the kid down the street" just starting out on his own, and the cordwainer made him a deal to help him out?

 

[Artificer]

Could/would a pouch have been made by someone in the trade (a corwainer or saddler maybe) for someone who sought a well made but cheaper pouch and so used less refined pieces of leather with less finishing? Could the above piece have been made of a leftover piece of leather that included that "natural" edge for "the kid down the street" just starting out on his own, and the cordwainer made him a deal to help him out?

OK, let's first give a nod to LongWalker for his list showing less expensive and one expensive pouches and his theory on apprentices making simpler pieces, which I think was a good point.

Now let's add to this that Saddlers, Cobblers and other leatherworkers normally only invested in or stocked hides/leather for items they usually sold. However, they would work with leather/hides provided by the customer. I may be mistaken, but I don't think most professional leatherworkers would have stocked hair on hides unless they got a contract to make things from such hides.

Let's also add in that Doddridge also wrote every home on the frontier had their own tan vat to tan hides of game they took, to use as needed.

So here are a couple of what I consider more likely scenarios (though not the only possible one/s) on this pouch. The customer brought the home tanned hair on hide or piece of a hide (which had already been cut to make other things) to the professional leatherworker to make the pouch. Since this pouch was not going to look like something the Master wanted recognized as his work, he handed it off to an apprentice to do the best he could with the leather he was given. That or the customer went to either a cobbler or even a runaway leather apprentice to have it made.

Still, your theory could also have been what happened.

Gus

 

[Brokennock]

OK, let's first give a nod to LongWalker for his list showing less expensive and one expensive pouches and his theory on apprentices making simpler pieces, which I think was a good point.

Now let's add to this that Saddlers, Cobblers and other leatherworkers normally only invested in or stocked hides/leather for items they usually sold. However, they would work with leather/hides provided by the customer. I may be mistaken, but I don't think most professional leatherworkers would have stocked hair on hides unless they got a contract to make things from such hides.

Let's also add in that Doddridge also wrote every home on the frontier had their own tan vat to tan hides of game they took, to use as needed.

So here are a couple of what I consider more likely scenarios (though not the only possible one/s) on this pouch. The customer brought the home tanned hair on hide or piece of a hide (which had already been cut to make other things) to the professional leatherworker to make the pouch. Since this pouch was not going to look like something the Master wanted recognized as his work, he handed it off to an apprentice to do the best he could with the leather he was given. That or the customer went to either a cobbler or even a runaway leather apprentice to have it made.

Still, your theory could also have been what happened.

Gus

I honestly didn't make out that the last bag was "hair on" leather. Now after reading your response and looking closer I can see that.

 

[Brokennock]

I am really not all that convinced that all, or even most, homemade bags would have exhibited poor stitching. Folks weren't stupid, and had skills regularly practiced that most folks today don't. Including sewing/stitching.

If there are some very nice homemade bags showing up here, and on other forums, often with the maker just learning to stitch from the internet and books, why would it be a stretch to think that someone who could already stitch could look at some nice bags and roughly recreate some features? Isn't that basically what many of us do?

 

[stephenprops1]

I'm not in to the PC HC stuff, are there actually people counting stitches on shooting bags?

I have heard that some individuals and groups are into thread counting and other stuff being period correct snobs. It has been suggested that if a person from the Rendezvous era magically appeared today some of those thread counters would criticize the old-timer's gear.

 

[Artificer]

I am really not all that convinced that all, or even most, homemade bags would have exhibited poor stitching. Folks weren't stupid, and had skills regularly practiced that most folks today don't. Including sewing/stitching.

If there are some very nice homemade bags showing up here, and on other forums, often with the maker just learning to stitch from the internet and books, why would it be a stretch to think that someone who could already stitch could look at some nice bags and roughly recreate some features? Isn't that basically what many of us do?

OK, let me use myself as an example, which I think in my early years was much closer to how I imagine they did things in the period on the frontier. I was not professionally trained and for the first few years had no mentor in my leatherworking. There wasn't a good book on hand stitching leather until Al Stohlman and his wife published "The Art of Hand Sewing Leather" 6 years after I began. There certainly was no internet loaded with written information and videos showing folks how to do most any kind of leather technique they would like to learn.

I knew what really good hand stitching looked like, but I didn't know how to do it. I purchased an overstitch tool to mark the distance between my stitching holes and in that I was probably way ahead of most young to perhaps middle-aged frontiersmen who did not have a "Pricker" or similar tool to do the same. I knew that one had to use two threads to do proper saddle stitching, but hardly anything else on how to do it. Then one day I happened to sew a line of stitches that actually looked like proper saddle stitching, before I sort of wandered back to less crude stitching. Now my less crude stitching was no doubt as strong as proper stitching, but I stopped and took the time to figure out the key to making saddle stitching look so good was to have one needle on one side always go over the top of the thread on the other side. The thread from the other side should always go under the thread.

So let's talk about the tools frontiersmen would have to use or not. Doddridge tells us every man had his awl attached to his shot pouch strap, probably due to having to daily repair or make new moccasins as well as other things. What about needles? Steel needles were known on the frontier, but many folks probably used hog bristles or other natural things to sew their leather. What they did not have was awls sized for particular size needles and also sized for particular linen cord, that professional makers used. They also didn't normally have prickers to get the even spacing between holes. So even if they were very careful and knew how to properly saddle stitch, their stitching would not have normally looked as good as professionals.

I doubt most would have had a small compass with sharp points on the end to lay out uniform strap width or rounded edges on the bottom of the pouch or flap. Now there are ways to make up for this, but that means taking even more time to make the pouch well and there was so much to do on the frontier just to survive on which they needed to spend their time. IOW, they often didn't have the training, tools or time to make their pouches fancier.

Gus

 

[Brokennock]

I think certain skills were taught since a young age because they were part of how one lived. Sewing might be one. Stitching leather might be another for more rural people or families who worked with animals. It might depend on where a family was and what they did for a living.
I'm not saying all bags were well stitched, or even decently stitched. I just don't think that homemade automatically equals junk.

 

[Artificer]

I think certain skills were taught since a young age because they were part of how one lived. Sewing might be one. Stitching leather might be another for more rural people or families who worked with animals. It might depend on where a family was and what they did for a living.
I'm not saying all bags were well stitched, or even decently stitched. I just don't think that homemade automatically equals junk.

I'm sorry if you got that impression of what I was saying, because that was not my intent at all.

For the most part, just because a leather item was not done by a professional, didn't mean the item was not serviceable and fulfilled the basic function intended. What I am saying is the item would not have looked as "finished" or esthetically pleasing as would have been made by a professional. Also, there could have been minor to even major mistakes made by an untrained person simply because they didn't have the training to know better.

Finally, even professionals in the period could make mistakes. For example, on the well known 18th century VA pouch that has the button on the back side of the pouch to allow some small adjustment of the strap. The stress put on the pouch by the thread holding the button caused it to tear through the leather at least once, if not twice during its working life, which to me shows bad design. For that reason and even if someone asked me to make an exact copy of that pouch, I wouldn't replicate that bad design.

Gus

 

[French Colonial]

I will circle back to bags, just keep reading.

In reading period pieces of men's adventures on the frontier the ones who start with boots and shoes usually end up in moccasins even if they did not start in them simply because tramping through streams and wet and uphill downhill and running etc. This would include early settlements Boonesborough etc. etc.
I am sure most of us can relate as when I was younger and constantly in the woods I went through shoes/boots pretty quickly.

So, in these same period pieces if they mention evenings in camp they are almost universal in mentioning repairing said moccasins, we can assume this is repairing stitching and holes in the soles or replacing soles. From that we know they had some sort of awl, some sort of needle and some sort of threading material.

If you can undertake to replace the sole on a worn out moccasin sitting by a campfire I would think that taking the time to make a shooting pouch would be pretty much a good winter project that you could take your time doing and doing a pretty good job.

If you disliked the project, I would guess the next time in the big city you could buy one from the local saddler.

AND, if you check out portraits of rich gentlemen from the period who visited the frontier you will find many with quilled and very fancy bags that they most assuredly did not assemble themselves.

Long winded way of saying, there were everything from hurry up knocked together bags to fancy bags in existence bought, traded, and just used up until they fell apart, same as the moccasins.

 

[sturmkatze]

I have heard that some individuals and groups are into thread counting and other stuff being period correct snobs. It has been suggested that if a person from the Rendezvous era magically appeared today some of those thread counters would criticize the old-timer's gear.

It’s nice to look down one’s nose at things we don’t understand. Do you even know what “stitch counting” is, or is it something you heard? Define “period correct snobs” please.

Too many Billy Bob’s make snap decisions about things without looking into the where’s and why’s. If an event has rules, they exist for a reason. You, who might not meet those standards, take offense.

 

[Brokennock]

It’s nice to look down one’s nose at things we don’t understand. Do you even know what “stitch counting” is, or is it something you heard? Define “period correct snobs” please.

Too many Billy Bob’s make snap decisions about things without looking into the where’s and why’s. If an event has rules, they exist for a reason. You, who might not meet those standards, take offense.

Standards? We can't have standards. That leads to judgement, which could be taken as criticism,,,, someone could get offended and get their feelings hurt.
You will have to have 127 points deducted from your "social credit" score.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I'm a believer that it would have been a rarity for someone to come to a professional craftsman (saddle, harness, shoe) for a custom made bag made to customer specs. They were probably made up along with other items in slow work and available off the peg. They would have also been professionally made and imported for sale in stores. Professional tanyards were located in and near settled rural areas and people took hides there to have them tanned for the making of various items, notably ***** shoes by someone local who was more a cobbler than a shoemaker. While bags made in the deep frontier backwoods out of a backyard pit might not have given the appearance of being made by a drunk monkey, I think the better stitched ones were not sewn using stitch styles and techniques of a trained leatherworker nor do those techniques seemed to have been mimicked. The better evidences of stitching seems to be more akin to that of cloth sewing.

 

[Artificer]

OK, I don't mean to step on anyone's toes or make a judgment against them, but I gave up on artificial sinew a quarter of a century ago and that was after I had used it for about a quarter of a century previously.

Now I admit a large part of the reason I did so was because they didn't have artificial sinew in the time periods I did or of this forum. However, there were more reasons than that.

Even though I separated the strands of artificial sinew (AS for future use) to make a smaller diameter thread, I found AS has a nasty habit of abrading/sawing through leather and particularly thinner leather. I found this out when making some 18th century wallets I intended to give as gifts. I made the wallets out of 2-3 oz veg tan cowhide and on two of the wallets, even the rather fine AS threads I had separated still did this. Never had such a problem with appropriately sized linen thread.

The straw that broke the camel's back for me with AS was when after only 1 1/2 years of reenacting with a 5-6 oz veg tanned waist belt I made for my cartouche box, the AS stitching sawed though that leather. Please note I did the proper cleaning and oiling maintenance of that belt, so the AS was totally to blame and not a dried out belt.

I also don't believe that for most leather items we use in our hobby, that AS stitching will last longer than linen thread stitching, unless it is something that exerts a LOT of abrasion on the stitches and if so, I don't even know how that would happen.

I do know from items I've already listed in this thread and other things, the linen thread stitching on the original pouches still looks solid even when the leather is in pretty sad shape.

Gus

 

[appalichian hunter]

Strickly a linen thread Sticher here never had a problem, and my gear sees a fair amount of usage, and besides the fake sinew well its fake now is it not. I can see a frontiersman sayin think I take a wander over to the fake sinew tree and get me some of that to stich up my period correct shooting bag.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Even though I separated the strands of artificial sinew (AS for future use) to make a smaller diameter thread, I found AS has a nasty habit of abrading/sawing through leather and particularly thinner leather.

I also don't believe that for most leather items we use in our hobby, that AS stitching will last longer than linen thread stitching, unless it is something that exerts a LOT of abrasion on the stitches and if so, I don't even know how that would happen.

I do know from items I've already listed in this thread and other things, the linen thread stitching on the original pouches still looks solid even when the leather is in pretty sad shape.

That's interesting, as I've not had that problem, even with mocs. On the other hand I also wax my artificial sinew when sewing with it. Further, I don't know how many different brands of the stuff there are, nor do I know if I'm using the same stuff that you used.

As for the linen, well we'd be hoping that what we use is the same as what they were using. I've had linen that was fine for sewing as long as you got it wet first, and other stuff that was just a tad shy of still being flax fibers, and looked good on the spool, but sucked to be used for sewing. OH and I've had some linen sport fishing line that was amazing for leather seams under a lot of stress, but alas it was from an estate sale, and I don't know how to get it today.

LD

 

[appalichian hunter]

Dave, you ever waxed the linen thread, helps it pull better, even when sewing clothing items. Also, and I am sure you know this linen thread comes in different weights. As for mocs if you can find it the fishing line that is used on the older level wind fishing reels works very good you also wax this, I use bees wax. Do a search online for the fishing reel cordage.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Quick search check e-bay and Historical angling

 

[BruceHuxford]

I have that problem with all synthetic threads, so I don't use them at all

 

[Artificer]

That's interesting, as I've not had that problem, even with mocs. On the other hand I also wax my artificial sinew when sewing with it. Further, I don't know how many different brands of the stuff there are, nor do I know if I'm using the same stuff that you used.

As for the linen, well we'd be hoping that what we use is the same as what they were using. I've had linen that was fine for sewing as long as you got it wet first, and other stuff that was just a tad shy of still being flax fibers, and looked good on the spool, but sucked to be used for sewing. OH and I've had some linen sport fishing line that was amazing for leather seams under a lot of stress, but alas it was from an estate sale, and I don't know how to get it today.

LD

LD,

I began using Barbour's linen thread years ago, but I think their factory has closed. Also tried Campbell's linen thread and that seems very similar to the Barbour's thread.

Over the years Tandy's linen thread has been iffy, but I've gotten some OK stuff from then, other times not.

I bought a small quantity of linen thread from Ben Franklin and Michael's craft stores and did not like either at all.

Gus

 

[BruceHuxford]

Now, I know why I can't find Barbour's thread.