A bag question for the PC stitch counters

[Grenadier1758]

I'm not in to the PC HC stuff, are there actually people counting stitches on shooting bags?

People have been known to count stitches on anything. For the most part, the item has to be pretty much out of the period for the stitch counting to be even brought up unless one is foolish enough to ask. I have seen Plains Era pouches that are way over sized with too much clutter (accessories) hanging off the pouches used at the juried (certainly a place to attract stitch counters) Fort de Chartres Market Faire and nothing is said.

 

[Artificer]

I'm not in to the PC HC stuff, are there actually people counting stitches on shooting bags?

Short answer, NO, there isn't. Even during the period, there were a number of different stitches to inch "layout tools" called prickers or pricker/stitching wheels used by professionals and even professionals sometimes stitched lesser expensive items by eye. Home made pouches would rarely have been made with such tools, unless the owner already had some training.

If one wishes to be historically accurate, there should not be any feature on the pouch/bag that is later than the time period one is doing. Of course, a pouch/bag of an earlier period would have remained in use for decades had it been properly cared for during it's using life.

Gus

 

[andy52]

Not in the group of people that I hang with (Getting fewer all the time) but if your period of interest is lets say 1740 in Prairie du Rocher near Kaskaskia then some things are out of place, Brass rivets and such.

No one in my group is going to call you on it, usually only if you ask for an opinion.

@ French Colonial is correct, I hang with the same bunch at Fort de Chartres.
I've never seen anyone question a shooting bag that's even halfway HC.
Personally, I don't use any rivets on my bags and all are hand stitched.
Any representation in painting or text is only a very small portion of the amount of shooting bags that existed at the time. I've reproduced bags from paintings for people and it's about half guesswork even with the painting.
Working with a two-dimensional image and trying to make something three-dimensional isn't the easiest thing to do.

 

[Brokennock]

I'm not in to the PC HC stuff, are there actually people counting stitches on shooting bags?

Depends on how you define "stitch counter," and "counting stitches."
Usually "stitch counter," is a derogatory moniker used by people who aren't serious about accurately representing or experiencing a focused time and/or place in history, to describe someone who has actually studied and does care who happens to have the audacity to mention that something is out of place. The user of the term is usually taking offense to having their gear or clothing criticized, even if no insult was intended.
Admittedly there are those on the studied and serious side of things who take it too far.

In this case I don't think our o.p. @brazosland meant it in a derogatory manner. I think he meant it as seeking opinions from those who will look closely and critically at the item and use studied knowledge to critique it for a given time and place. In this case "stitch counting" isn't about stitches per inch. It is about, if the placement of the axe on the bag is historically appropriate, and in the process we see other things such as the rivets and rings that stand out more as possibly/probably wrong than the axe being questioned.

 

[Artificer]

Here is an "over the shoulder strap" tomahawk scabbard from the FIW or shortly after as I remember, but definitely pre-AWI. I used to have a pic of a similar one owned by the British Indian Agent Sir William Johnson in the FIW, but lost it when I had to replace an older PC.

These weren't hugely common, but they definitely existed. I decided to post this pic to demonstrate something different in the way we know they carried a tomahawk or belt axe in the period.

I personally would not have a problem with the way the OP attached the belt axe scabbard to his Shot/Hunting Pouch, because there were such variations in the way people did things back then.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

There is the other approach, that of copying one of the rare bags that can be dated. My oldest personal bag, for example, is a copy of a bag that has provenance to Ohio in the 1790s. I copied the bag as it is, repairs and all. After more than 25 years of living with it, I've come to the conclusion that the original designer/maker was an idiot and the purchaser a fool, who probably found the ignominious death he deserved. But it is relatively PC. . . . The idea has struck me at times that perhaps the bag was a homemade copy of a professionally-made bag, and that I should try copying it and making the obvious corrections, as perhaps it was pre-repairs and all. Then I remember that even that wouldn't fix everything I hate about the bag.

I'm gradually making a bag to go with my Leman, a copy of a bag with provenance to the 1830s. Only a single-pouch, but it avoids everything I hate about the other bag. Maybe I'll make 2.

LOL, just wanted to say I got a huge kick out of the above.

Not everything made in the period was good design or worked well. However, something made with GOOD period design and methods can be a joy to own and use, as I'm sure you are aware.

Gus

 

[Stantheman86]

I'm not a reenactor, and I don't do living History anymore because even when your 100% correct and your outfit and gear is perfect , know it alls will pick you apart with wrong information

I wouldn't worry too much about H/C ness, people back then used whatever they had or could get. Anything that could have been made at that time was used

When people get too hung up on H/C stuff I tell them, don't forget that Napoleon used air rifles too. 100% fact. No one ever believes me.

There is always an outlier to every period

I also saw a flintlock revolver at the Smithsonian

 

[brazosland]

Please understand I'm not being critical, but rather trying to share information that you and others may like.

OK, sewing machines were not invented until the late 1840's in France or the early 1850's in America, so a machine sewn factory bag would have been too late for either of your periods.

The earliest factory in America I know of that made leather items was set up in Norfolk, VA in 1747. They had 17 workers and that would have been seen as a good size factory even by English standards of the day. They made "ready made" shoes and boots in various sizes. However, I don't think they made commercial Shot Pouches/Bags for civilians, though they of course had the skills to have done so. It is possible they made military Cartouche/Cartridge Boxes and Pouches under contract during the FIW, though.

Shot Pouches/Bags or Hunting Pouches/Bags up to and during your two periods were either home made or Professionally made. Professionally made (commercial) pouches/bags were usually made by Saddlers or to a lesser degree by Cobblers or others in the leather working trades. The overall quality/"fanciness" of one's Shot Pouches/Bags or Hunting Pouches/Bags was up to how much the customer could afford, though professionally made pouches of course could have been rather plain.

So the answer to your question basically is how much could your ancestor afford and was willing to spend on his Shot/Hunting Pouch or Bag, if he did not have the skills and tools to make it himself? This because he would have had access to a professionally made bag even in some frontier areas.

Gus

Great post! Thank you! Had no idea sewing machines were that late.

Here is another question since we are on the subject…would a Professionally made bag have the appearance of being much closer to a machine made bag just because of the nature of a pros work? Even spacing of holes etc?

Trying to picture in my minds eye the difference between Home made (which back then was Way better than our version of home made because of their average skill level) and Shop made. Was the difference not in the quality of the work but in the standardization of design and materials?

 

[appalichian hunter]

I make just about all my own leather gear, yes, I look at pictures and others work to get ideals, but the mindset is during construction is as I was on the eastern frontier. around 1750 -1760 time period. Hacking out a life for myself and family, very self-reliant and scratching bye the best we can. As the bag, sheath or whatever takes shape it has its own character. Is it period correct who's to say, yes there were some dandies from the established settlements in the eastern towns who had professionally made bags, as I have never come across any originals with proven Provence? I would bet that those frontiersmen, homesteaders, hunters and whoever else toted a rifle then. would have similar but different made by them bags also. So is historical correctness. A given thing or is I made it, I stayed in the general mindset, time period and I am happy with it more of the route to take.

 

[brazosland]

I'm not in to the PC HC stuff, are there actually people counting stitches on shooting bags?

I used it as a joke about being Period Correct to attract attention.

 

[sturmkatze]

I'm not a reenactor, and I don't do living History anymore because even when your 100% correct and your outfit and gear is perfect , know it alls will pick you apart with wrong information

I wouldn't worry too much about H/C ness, people back then used whatever they had or could get. Anything that could have been made at that time was used

When people get too hung up on H/C stuff I tell them, don't forget that Napoleon used air rifles too. 100% fact. No one ever believes me.

There is always an outlier to every period

I also saw a flintlock revolver at the Smithsonian

Yes, but no one said Napoleon didn’t have air rifles. If someone wants something right, then that’s what they want. Some people get so hung up on the whole, historically-correct or period-correct that they just don’t get it. If you want it to be accurate, make it accurate.

Going to juried events make some people happy but it doesn’t make everyone happy. Those that get offended about historical accuracy are the ones that can’t do it or refuse to do it. “The whole term far be it for me to criticize your impression, but…” is what It is. The thing is, if you took a lot of these things that people don’t consider authentic back in time, they would love it. Really, do what makes you happy. And if you want authentic, dead-on balls-accurate… Do that and don’t listen to other peoples opinions.

And just a thought, the bags I’ve seen in this thread look pretty good, and there’s some neat ideas.

 

[brazosland]

One more thought, if your ancestor came through what is now Louisiana or Texas towards the Santa Fe trail and had his pouch made locally, it likely would have had at least some Spanish influence, as they already had a long tradition of making leather goods by then.

Gus

Your posts are always welcome. The knowledge you have is greatly appreciated.

Lewis and Clark picked him up in Illinois and he went down and then up the river with them. Stayed on the river and in the west until he was killed in a fight with the Sioux in 1838.

 

[sturmkatze]

… the difference between Home made (which back then was Way better than our version of home made because of their average skill level) and Shop made.

Was it? There were poor, craftsman back, then not everybody was an artist not everybody was a craftsman. Homemade could look like crapola and be crapola. They did what they did because they needed it and if you wasn’t perfect well used what you had. Just a thought.

 

[brazosland]

Was it? There were poor, craftsman back, then not everybody was an artist not everybody was a craftsman. Homemade could look like crapola and be crapola. They did what they did because they needed it and if you wasn’t perfect well used what you had. Just a thought.

I don’t know. But everyone back then sewed…the vast majority of men I know don’t even own a needle. But then again, that assumption on my part may be dead wrong. That’s what I love about this hobby, we can’t assume anything.

In our modern age we are so accustomed to not having to make anything that what we now consider to be exceptional person skill may have been an established norm back then.

I don’t judge other folks stuff, but I try to get mine right to the degree I can, and to the degree I can afford.

 

[user 48679]

I think that, while women handled the sewing of light household & attire items, the sewing of leather equipment (like horse tack, etc, etc) would have fallen to the men.

 

[Coot]

Great post! Thank you! Had no idea sewing machines were that late.

Here is another question since we are on the subject…would a Professionally made bag have the appearance of being much closer to a machine made bag just because of the nature of a pros work? Even spacing of holes etc?

Trying to picture in my minds eye the difference between Home made (which back then was Way better than our version of home made because of their average skill level) and Shop made. Was the difference not in the quality of the work but in the standardization of design and materials?

Re your question on the quality of the work vs the standardization of design, the answer is both. The professional could afford to buy specialized tools and had been trained in how to use them for best results. Standardization of design was (and still is) a cost saving practice - easier to make 10 alike than 10 different - patterns, jigs & maximum utilization of materials all work with standardized designs.

 

[Stantheman86]

Guys had a lot of time on their hands back then , and anyone that relied on their gear to make a living , or survive , probably took their time to make it tough and to last. They would also want their gear to look good just like we do today . If you're laying around in camp or in a log shelter every night you'll probably take the time to sew something ornate and attractive on your bag just for something to do.

Some reenactors walk around looking like a gypsy camp, with all kinds of gear just to have it. I believe any frontiersman, outdoorsman, professional hunter etc would have had their gear neatly packed , in as few bags as possible, only carrying what they need. No one was carrying 3 hatchets, 5 knives , a pair of pistols and a Hawken , with bags dangling all over the place. People get hung up on what people "should have" looked like, not what they actually did look like and carry.

There are no rules to HC/PC as long as the materials were available back then and the method used to make them was correct.

 

[user 34486]

To get the conversation back to the point, I think your shot pouch has way more against it than working for it to be used for anything historical. The good news is that I think an appropriate pouch that you would want is much simpler in design and extremely easy to whip up. As stated much further above, find some extant examples you like and copy one.

 

[Billy Boy]

I used to carry a larger knife but as I have gotten older I have learned a small knife is just as useful, even more so actually, than a big one.

In the time period we are all interested there were (in my opinion) fighting knives and utility knives. I have some large knives (riflemans knifes) and smaller patch knives. The Patch knives clean my deer now. This knife, made by our own Tallpine cleaned all my deer this year.

View attachment 200400View attachment 200401

My dad, in the 60’s carried a small 5” blade fixed knife, it’s my sons now, and I spent my whole life carrying my 7” Buck #119 and 6 to 8” Bowies with two inch wide blades wondering how he made do with that tiny knife…but, here I am. Wisdom is the fruit of the journey.

That bag and hatchet carry easily. I wear my bag high under my arm, making it easy to run, so that 10” handle doesn’t get in the way at all. The head is a little thick. A Ft Megs style head would be MUCH better.

I have a Virginia axe I got from Clay Smiths site. My other two hawks have spikes (for fighting) and I carry them hunting. The axe I will carry in my sash, the two below I carry in a leather loop that I admit I had made based on one in the Revenant (I know, “Burn the Witch!”), but it seems to work well and they disappear for me unless I sit down. But I have learned to reach for them before sitting just as I would for a pistol in a belt or sash.

My two spike hawks that I carry in the belt loop below. I’m very satisfied with this arrangement. Just need a wounded hog to test the gear in a final rush of historical accuracy…

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I have field dressed ( gutted) many deer with my neck knife, 3” blade. I don’t cut the pelvic bone in the woods, opens them up to just collect debris on the drag out.

 

[longcruise]

No one was carrying 3 hatchets, 5 knives , a pair of pistols and a Hawken ,

Agree with all of your post except the part quoted. What a trapper carried around was directly related to the degree of success he obtained in the business. A "new guy" to a trapping company may not have had any manner of weapon or much of anything in his personal kit. Would most likely be a camp keeper.

otoh, a successful trapper was very likely to be armed with a rifle and a pair of pistols.