Have a couple of questions for the pro's who make muzzleloaders for a living. How many guns do you guys make in an average year? I know this will vary from maker to maker and depend on the type of gun that is being made, but I just wanted to know if anyone keeps track of this. Also does it take 12 hours a day, 7 days a week to produce enough money to get by? I know that if I had to rely on building guns for a living, I would probably starve to death within a month or two. Buddy1
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A question for the pro's
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That is an interesting question. I'm interested in getting deeper into building too, with the idea that I "might" want to become a builder some day. I plan on becoming a fulltime gunsmith when I move to Colorado, so being a builder also, just sorta fits.
AeroncaTAL
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I am also contemplating building muzzleloaders as a full time hobby/business. I'll be eligible for retirement in a few years and this will certainly fill my idle time.
Don't know if I would consider myself a pro, but I do make a small living at building guns. So here it goes. 15-20ish guns a year and you can do more or less depending on how much work goes into each firearm and if you have any repeats. I work as long as I can each day before my mind turns into mush or when I start to make mistakes. I found thats its easier sometimes to take small breaks during the Day to remain on top of things rather than spending time to make repairs(from mistakes). Now this "to produce enough money to get by" is totally different for everyone. It should be how much do you need to make? For me I'm single, no kids I drive used vehicles, do not eat out, wear my clothes untill they are rags... I think you get the point.
Its taken me 4 years to where I am finally just working on guns and do not really need to pic up any side jobs.
Its taken me 4 years to where I am finally just working on guns and do not really need to pic up any side jobs.
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Trust me Roy, you definately are a "Pro".
Roy, Thanks for the info. I figure I might be able to make 10 to 12 guns in a year if I went full time but I still have a lot to learn. I will probably wait until retirement to dive off into gunbuilding as a supplemental business but it sure is tempting and I respect those souls who have the guts to take the plunge and give it a try. I am pretty low maintainence (drive a 20 year old truck and also wear my clothes until they are not fit for use as rags) but I do have a wife and kids and have to put their needs in front of mine. But the hooks are in deep and I will be stepping out into space to see where I land as soon as I can. Buddy1
Mike Brooks
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If you'd like to slowly starve to death I'd recommmend building muzzleloaders for a living. I "practiced" for 15 years before I started building full time. You have to work extreamly fast and still do high quality work to make enough dollars per gun to survive. Those two qualities together are quite rare.
My goal is to make as much money per year as the guy who fixes your toilet.....or even the guy that pics up my garbage. :haha:
My goal is to make as much money per year as the guy who fixes your toilet.....or even the guy that pics up my garbage. :haha:
Sorry Mike. Probably won't happen.
Guys, here's the way it is.
If you make a rifle and sell it for...say....$3,000
It has about $800 in parts and materials.
So that's all the labor for $2,200
Now if that guns takes 300 hours from start to finish (about right) you take $2200 and divide by 300 and you get $7.30 an hour.
Now pay taxes.
Keep in mind that the work will be 12-14 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, with NO breaks, NO paid sick time, NO paid time off, NO holiday pay, NO benifits, and NO help
If you don't build muzzleloaders for the joy of doing it, don't start doing it.
It's a lot like raising kids.
A HELL of a lot of work, and there's no money in it.
You do it for love, or not at all.
Guys, here's the way it is.
If you make a rifle and sell it for...say....$3,000
It has about $800 in parts and materials.
So that's all the labor for $2,200
Now if that guns takes 300 hours from start to finish (about right) you take $2200 and divide by 300 and you get $7.30 an hour.
Now pay taxes.
Keep in mind that the work will be 12-14 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, with NO breaks, NO paid sick time, NO paid time off, NO holiday pay, NO benifits, and NO help
If you don't build muzzleloaders for the joy of doing it, don't start doing it.
It's a lot like raising kids.
A HELL of a lot of work, and there's no money in it.
You do it for love, or not at all.
The one thing I forgot about is the supply and demand. If no one wants to buy your guns you can not afford to make more guns. Basically if theres no demand theres no supply. I may be building for years to come, or maybe just the end of next year.
One thing to consider is whether or not you like dealing with customers and the time that takes. Usually that's not paid time. Some customers cannot be satisfied, that's a fact, but they are always "right". Even the ones who want you to build a cherry stocked Hawken with brass furniture, an octagon to round 12 gauge smoothbore barrel, an early French flintlock, and raised carving. Just kidding, but you get the idea. If you ever do go commercial, remember every gun has to satisfy YOU first.
Lots of good advice here!
The idea that a person can build a gun and ask $3000 for it sounds intreguing however, unless you have a recognized name your not going to get anyone to pay that kind of money for your work.
Playing with Steve's numbers a bit, lets say you buy the parts for only $600 (180 barrel, 100 lock, 35 trigger, 170 stock, 30 butt plate & trigger guard castings, 25 patch box, 60 msc parts and finishes). Lets say your fast too. 180 hours to build.
Now, when you start trying to sell your finished gun, I can tell you first hand you will be lucky to get $1200 for it. (Your unknown, remember?)
This ends up with (1200-600)/180 or $3.33 an hour.
You can make more than that asking folks "Did you want Frys with that?".
Folks who have examined the guns I've built all say things like "...excellent...", "...some of the best I've seen...", "...you really ought to go to 'Vegas'! I've seen guns not nearly as nice go for a lot more than your asking!" but , not one of them wants to buy them.
Oh, I take that back. One guy about broke his arm reaching for his wallet when I said I would sell the first gun I built for $800. (I wanted the money for a Uberti High Wall).
As was said, 'You have to build them because you love building them'. That makes having them when your done a lot easier to live with.
zonie
The idea that a person can build a gun and ask $3000 for it sounds intreguing however, unless you have a recognized name your not going to get anyone to pay that kind of money for your work.
Playing with Steve's numbers a bit, lets say you buy the parts for only $600 (180 barrel, 100 lock, 35 trigger, 170 stock, 30 butt plate & trigger guard castings, 25 patch box, 60 msc parts and finishes). Lets say your fast too. 180 hours to build.
Now, when you start trying to sell your finished gun, I can tell you first hand you will be lucky to get $1200 for it. (Your unknown, remember?)
This ends up with (1200-600)/180 or $3.33 an hour.
You can make more than that asking folks "Did you want Frys with that?".
Folks who have examined the guns I've built all say things like "...excellent...", "...some of the best I've seen...", "...you really ought to go to 'Vegas'! I've seen guns not nearly as nice go for a lot more than your asking!" but , not one of them wants to buy them.
Oh, I take that back. One guy about broke his arm reaching for his wallet when I said I would sell the first gun I built for $800. (I wanted the money for a Uberti High Wall).
As was said, 'You have to build them because you love building them'. That makes having them when your done a lot easier to live with.
zonie
I have friend who builds exceptional quality guns. He has a name that is known and has been in the business fulltime for 20+ years.
I had a conversation with him today about the business. He told me that in the past three years he has seen a drop in orders. He said that he has heard the same thing from all the other builders that he knows and that includes gunsmith who work on modern arms.
They all sumise that there is a culture shift underway. That younger folks today don't have the interest in muzzleloaders, guns, hunting etc, as in the past. This has proably been discussed in this forum before so all of you probably know this but here goes.
He has a friend in Texas that he has built several guns for. The guy from Texas told him that he has a friend that has a video game distribution business. He has six locations in the states. In the past few years his business has skyrocketed through the roof. That is not that surprising to me as we all hear about kids today wanting to do nothing but play video games. However what is surprising is that the group that buys the most games are men aged from 22 to 40. Perhaps they buy them for their kids but if not guess what their kids are going to want to do and be when they grow up.
Don't mean to discourage anyone. I also have dreams of building guns for sale when I retire.
I had a conversation with him today about the business. He told me that in the past three years he has seen a drop in orders. He said that he has heard the same thing from all the other builders that he knows and that includes gunsmith who work on modern arms.
They all sumise that there is a culture shift underway. That younger folks today don't have the interest in muzzleloaders, guns, hunting etc, as in the past. This has proably been discussed in this forum before so all of you probably know this but here goes.
He has a friend in Texas that he has built several guns for. The guy from Texas told him that he has a friend that has a video game distribution business. He has six locations in the states. In the past few years his business has skyrocketed through the roof. That is not that surprising to me as we all hear about kids today wanting to do nothing but play video games. However what is surprising is that the group that buys the most games are men aged from 22 to 40. Perhaps they buy them for their kids but if not guess what their kids are going to want to do and be when they grow up.
Don't mean to discourage anyone. I also have dreams of building guns for sale when I retire.
I agree with The Wolf.
Guys, don't give up on trying your hand at building. I am not one to discourage it at all. WE NEED TO KEEP THE INTEREST UP AND RUNNING
I just wanted to point out that building for a living is only for those that can be truly happy with a "low level of living"
But as a hobby, building longrifles is very rewarding. I would love to see more interest in it.
I have taught classes for several years now, and I love to see the excitement and passon that new builders get when things come togather.
It's out history...our heritage. Let's keep it alive!
Give it a try. You'll love it.
Steve Zihn
Guys, don't give up on trying your hand at building. I am not one to discourage it at all. WE NEED TO KEEP THE INTEREST UP AND RUNNING
I just wanted to point out that building for a living is only for those that can be truly happy with a "low level of living"
But as a hobby, building longrifles is very rewarding. I would love to see more interest in it.
I have taught classes for several years now, and I love to see the excitement and passon that new builders get when things come togather.
It's out history...our heritage. Let's keep it alive!
Give it a try. You'll love it.
Steve Zihn
Mike Brooks
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I havn't seen any decline in orders myself. I believe There is a tremendous amount of competition for full time gunmakers coming from "hobbyist" makers who are exceptionally good. This wasn't the case when I started full time ten years ago. Programs like the one at University of western KY and all the gunbuilder videos have trained alot of talented people to build very high quality guns.
My market has changed drastically since I started full time. I used to pick up 6 to 9 gun orders everytime I went to Friendship. I havn't got a gun order there in two years, and I'm considering cuting that trip to once a year. Most all of my business now comes from the internet, which is fine as I don't like travelling that much anyway.
The type of guns I build is about the same for the past 25 years. About an equal mix of fowlers and rifles with a smattering of weird stuff thrown in. I got a reputation for fowlers early on, and was always willing to take on wierd stuff since the early days....I always seem to loose my butt on the weird stuff, I always miscalculate the hours on jobs like those. :shake:
I would like to point out, that just because you can build a gun doesn't mean you'll be able to sell it, even for the price of parts. A name and a reputation is everything in this business. You also have to make what people want to buy. Just because you think a particular style of gun is cool, doesn't mean anybody else does.
The learning curve is steep. I built guns for the first 15 years for next to nothing. I was building about 8 to 10 guns a year in those days and holding down a full time job. I was getting the price of parts and a couple hundred bucks. But, I learned how to build guns right and built a reputation. There are dues to be paid in this business and they are measured in time, passion and dedication.
It's easy to get burnt out, I never did untill a coule years ago. Now, When Ever I hit "the wall" I usually build a spec gun, something I want to build, and that gets me back on track again.
I could ramble on, but I think I'll stop here. :yakyak:
My market has changed drastically since I started full time. I used to pick up 6 to 9 gun orders everytime I went to Friendship. I havn't got a gun order there in two years, and I'm considering cuting that trip to once a year. Most all of my business now comes from the internet, which is fine as I don't like travelling that much anyway.
The type of guns I build is about the same for the past 25 years. About an equal mix of fowlers and rifles with a smattering of weird stuff thrown in. I got a reputation for fowlers early on, and was always willing to take on wierd stuff since the early days....I always seem to loose my butt on the weird stuff, I always miscalculate the hours on jobs like those. :shake:
I would like to point out, that just because you can build a gun doesn't mean you'll be able to sell it, even for the price of parts. A name and a reputation is everything in this business. You also have to make what people want to buy. Just because you think a particular style of gun is cool, doesn't mean anybody else does.
The learning curve is steep. I built guns for the first 15 years for next to nothing. I was building about 8 to 10 guns a year in those days and holding down a full time job. I was getting the price of parts and a couple hundred bucks. But, I learned how to build guns right and built a reputation. There are dues to be paid in this business and they are measured in time, passion and dedication.
It's easy to get burnt out, I never did untill a coule years ago. Now, When Ever I hit "the wall" I usually build a spec gun, something I want to build, and that gets me back on track again.
I could ramble on, but I think I'll stop here. :yakyak:
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