Acceptable 100 yd groups

[sproulman]

good info on 1&7/8 at 50 yds.

i sight mine in dead at 13 yds, 1 inch high at 25 yds or 2 inchs at 50 yds but i honestly say, i never seen what its doing at 100 yds. :shake:

i use a black dot only in center of a white cardboard paper.

i take a dime and draw it with pencil ,then a black marker i fill it in.

this is how i learned to shoot my recurve bow 50 years ago instinctively.

i could shoot arrow after arrow in that dime at 20 yds up to 15 shots.

i still use it today for my arrows and OPEN SIGHTS.

 

[Idaho Ron]

smallest group I have shot with my 50 was a .402

Since a .402 group size is smaller than the size of the .50cal being used, I assume that would be something like a cloverleaf with the print on the target being larger than a single projectile, but you're measuring from center to center of overlapping holes?

I measure the overall width of the group and subtract the diameter of the bullet. Ron

 

[biliff]

I figure, with PRB off a bench at 100yds on a calm day, 4" groups are reasonable with a little tinkering. Add some more tinkering and I can squeeze 'em down to around 3". All bets are off if the wind kicks up.

 

[paulvallandigham]

That is what others know as measuring the group from center to center, Ron.

The other method is known as the " String measure". where you measure the distance from some known mark, like the center of an "X" to the center of each bullet, and total them up to get your "string measure." But, that is NOT a group size measurement, either.

In Pistol competition, and some rifle target shooting competition, where scoring rings are used, the score is determined by any cutting of a ring by any part of the bullet, so that using a larger diameter barrel gives only a slight advantage over using a small bore. ( recoil vs. pinpoint accuracy at short yardage.) But, this is a "SCORING " system, nor a measure of group size.

I don't recall any group that measures the OUTSIDE diameter of a group for group size.

BTW, Congratulations on shooting that very small group. I am sure you wish all groups you fire are that small, but when something like this happens, you want witnesses, and you want to save the target or take a picture! I DO!!!

 

[roundball]

Differences in measuring techniques is why I asked as there are a few different ways people do it.

For me personally, if I'd shot that target I'd call it a 7/8" inch group...meaning that I put all the bullets in the group that I fired inside a 7/8" circle...so that would be my "group size"...ie: "my group occupied 7/8" of the target face"

Different strokes...

 

[Dave K]

Our yearly "group" shoots at the club are measured as you do it. The guy who kind of always runs our shoot, says that his how they did it when he was in the Army. He was in the Army from around '68 until"?", as am MP in 'Nam. Sounds good to me. He then went went into being Highway Patrolman and is now retired. Maybe they measured it the same way there as well. All I know, is it makes good sense to me. There are times you have have 5 shots in a grp. like that and just how else can you fairly measure it?

Paul, as a matter of fact, our local Ml'er club measures it this way as well. You measure the outside of the group and then subtract out the bullet/ball size. So technically if you are shooting say a 50cal. it is possible, but unlikely to get a group size of .000. I have done that, but only when I shoot one ball.

 

[PreglerD]

Yesterday I was at the range again with my .54 eastern tenn. poorboy flinter. At 50 m with 75grs WANO PP, .525 PRB I was able to hold 3 shot groups of the bench of 1,5''. Next time I'll try it at 100m.

BTW I find the ignition of this nice Roy made flinter outstanding, nearly as fast as a capper. didn't expect this!

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[paulvallandigham]

When you subtract the size ( diameter ) of the bullet being used from the " Outside " diameter of the group- the farthest distance from one side of the group to the other, you are allowing one half the diameter of one bullet on one side, and one half the diameter of the bullet on the other side of the group, or MEASURING CENTER TO CENTER!

The way your club is measuring the group sizes is the FAST way to do it.

In some older clubs, the use half balls- a lead ball cut in half, with an "X" drawn on the flatside to measure the target holes. Modern shooters have bore sized pins with a plastic magnifier to use in finding the centers of the bullet holes, as well as the EXACT EDGE.When you are measuring a 5 or 10-shot group that measures less than .5 inches( and now even under .25"), center to center, you have to find accurate ways to measure the groups that are consistent and repeatable from one target to another, and back to the same targets, when they are " challenged."

One of the reason shooting matches have been extended over greater ranges, as guns and ammunition have become more accurate, is to make it easier to determine group size, and a winning score. The longer range also tests the shooting ability of the shooter, and adds problems like heat mirage, and shifting winds for the shooters to deal with over longer distances. The NMLRA only recently found a long range close to their main property where they could hold 600-1,000 yard matches. The 500 and shorter yardage range at Friendship has thinned a bit as a result, but that has made room for more, new shooters.

If you think you have seen tight groups, you have to see a 500 yard, 10-shot group that measures 5.26 inches, center to center, fired with a .69 caliber slug gun rifle. :thumbsup:

 

[Dave K]

HUH? I thought we were talking about grp. size and not score. An example would be looking at the NRA "Official 100yd. Small Bore Target". If you kept and scored 5 shots and they all broke the 10 ring, you would have a score of 50. Now let's measure the grp.! The grp. size, based on using a 50cal.(using a .490 ball) and breaking the 10 ring, could be as large as 2.89". But a .000", .010" .025" or even 1.00" grp. for example, is just that. Center to center. IMHO, if you are looking for grp. size as this thread asked for, this is the answer. If you are looking for score, that is a totally different question and answer. We aren't taking the easy way out, we are taking the correct way to size a grp.! Now, if scoring and the system does call for line breaks to help in making the score. As a general rule, the larger bore as an advantage over a small bore since it will still break the line giving a higher score, but have a worse grp. :surrender:

Again, if the club is playing shooting games, that means score, like how close to the "X", etc. Which is not grps.

 

[Tonibaruch]

How many bullets make your group?

 

[Stumpkiller]

I have a three-shot 3/4" group fired at 50 yards offhand with my .50 New Englander that folks who hung around here five years ago got sick of seeing. Used-to-was I could do 4" at 100 yards with my .54 Renegade with the stock iron-sights. I'm up to twice that now. Coffee, age, bifocals & eye injury has not helped.

Consequently, my days of popping a deer at 120 yards with iron sights are behind me. I like to have them 75 yards or closer. And, happily, my last five rifle-shot deer have been 35, 10, 15, 20 and 10 yards. All while I was seated on a tree-seat with my feet on the ground.

 

[Dave K]

Many shoot 3 for grp. I usually shoot 5, because I enjoy shooting. :grin:

 

[Little Wattsy]

For my use in hunting 3"-4" at a hundred is perfectly adequate. For competition I would want it tight as I could get.

Ditto!

 

[Idaho Ron]

How many bullets make your group?

That group has three bullets in it. Ron

 

[Tonibaruch]

I shoot seven and measure the best five. At this point i always seem to have at least one flyer, and my "group shooting" is usually made from a bench with rest at the very beginning or each session, so it includes the fowling shots.

Couriosly, from the standing position i shoot more open groups, but not so much more open and with less flyers.

 

[longcruise]

Many shoot 3 for grp. I usually shoot 5, because I enjoy shooting.

I never felt that anything less than a 10 shot group to be useful in calculating ones ability to place a shot in a vital zone on game. Or, IOW, the maximum deviation to be expected from the point of aim.

In fact, you can shoot two or three five shot groups and have none of them measure in excess of, say, four inches, but when you lay the three five shot targets on top of each other and calculate the size of a 15 shot group it may be and probably will be much larger than the four inch five shot target.

Ifigure it this way cause when I draw down to shoot at an animal I am randomly firing one of ten possible shots. I don't know which shot it's going to be. Will it be the one that centered the point of aim at the range or will it be the widest shot that was four inches from the center of the ten shot group.

Three shot groups are for gun rag writers trying to keep the advertisers happy :haha:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I respectfully disagree. How many shots are you going to get at a game animal?

It seems to me that the first shot out of a clean barrel is going to be the most important, as far as accurate placement. Firing 2 more shots just confirms that the first shot is not a fluke, or tells you that it is.

After 3 shots, you are target shooting. Fouling, and other problems( Including sensitivity to recoil, eye fatigue, etc.) begin to take effect the more shots that are fired, particularly with the light weight "hunting guns" that are being used today.

If you really want to know what kind of shooter you are, then that 10-shot group is a very good test. But, that may not be telling you the best information, and the most useful information about your gun and load, for hunting.

With Black Powder, fouling becomes such an issue so quickly that unless you clean the gun between shots, all you can expect after a couple of shot is for the barrel to be harder to load, and for the groups to open up. If you fire enough rounds fast enough, you might even heat an octagon barrel up enough that the POI changes as well.

 

[longcruise]

I respectfully disagree.. .blah . . blah blah . . . . . But, that may not be telling you the best information, and the most useful information about your gun and load, for hunting.

Your response is so loaded with assumption and presumption along with some apparent lack of comprehension that it does not even make sense.

 

[roundball]

And what's worse, his post has nothing to do with the poster's question...he's taking issue with YOUR post... :shake:

 

[sproulman]

very good info.

i take along my BROWNING BUCKMARK PLUS WITH ROSEWOOD GRIPS 22 cal.

after about 5 shots, i take pistol and crack out 15 shots at mymetal targets at 25yds.
this gives my barrel a chance too cool down.

i also wipe between every shot with windex or alcohal.

how did i get off topic :rotf: