Acceptable 100 yd groups

[Dave K]

I can certainly agree with 10 shots, but just how fast are you doing them? You have also now introduced heat into the equation. Back to grp. shooting though. I do that number of 5 and yes, somethimes 3, to work up a load. You can see in what direction the grp. is going and there is no sense going with more or less. I have noticed though on every ml'er I have, that unless you allow time for cooling the barrel, your grps. will change as well. Pretty soon you are like a dog chasing your tail, you really never get close to what you are trying to get. Actually, many times I take more than one gun to work up loads. Allowing one to cool in the shade, as I work on the other. I also have my note book with me, to write down what loads I have tested, so I do not get confused. The best thing anyone can do is to write down your results, or you are just spinning your wheels. As you take those 10 shots, you can usually see which direction the grp. will shift. Beleive it or not, I agree with Paul. After I have that load I am happy with, I may wait till next shooting session just to see if the FIRST shot, goes where I want it. It is the most important shot.

 

[Claude Mathis]

It seems to me that the first shot out of a clean barrel is going to be the most important, as far as accurate placement.

I agree. There are many situations in life where you get only "one shot" - figuratively and literally. IMHO

 

[longcruise]

I have noticed though on every ml'er I have, that unless you allow time for cooling the barrel, your grps. will change as well. Pretty soon you are like a dog chasing your tail, you really never get close to what you are trying to get.

We're chasing two different tails. My post was about test shooting to determine what is the smallest group one can shoot after sighting in to establish a personsal point blank range for hunting purposes.

I sight in for hunting from the bench keeping the barrel reasonably cool and wiping thoroughly after each shot. Once sighted in the shooting of ten shot groups to establish PBR is done with the same procedures only from offhand since that will probably be the least accurate position I'll be shooting from on a hunt.

That ten shot group tells me what are the possible impact points of a first shot on game. IOW, if your 10 shot group is eight inches with a max deviation from poa of four inches, when you drop the hammer on your shot on game, you have no idea where within that eight inch circle that specific shot is going. But you do know that the probability is that it will be within eight inches.

If a hunter is shooting ten shots into 12 or 15 inches at 50 yards, he probably should not shoot at a deer at 50 cause he knows that the chance of a poorly placed shot is pretty high.

My typical ten shot group offhand at 50 yards is about eight inches. That pretty much maxes me, my eyes and my gun at 50 yards for deer hunting. A little further for elk.

So, as Paul says, "the first shot out of a clean barrel is going to be the most important, as far as accurate placement"

I'm just saying that for me, I'll establish where that shot could go by shooting a ten shot group from a cold clean barrel.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Ah-h-h-h! Now, that clarifies it. You are shooting those 10 shots OFF-hand, to test your shooting skills to determine where that First shot from a cold barrel is likely to hit, and how far wide of the mark! This is a very good thing to do. I agree with you, now.

With any gun, and any caliber, its incumbent on the shooter to find out his maximum range for hitting the vital area of a game animal he intends to hunt. He has to decide if he can take a good shot at ANY distance in the off-hand position. Many hunters don't even try. They take a rest, or they don't shoot at all. I tip my hat to them all for putting ethics ahead of " Gettin'". :hatsoff:

I have had to track wounded deer for other hunters who made bad shots, and they all were feeling very bad about having shot at all while I was tracking their deer. No one wants to be in that situation. Murphy will spoil enough shots for you that you don't have to take chances and help him OUT! :shake: :nono: :blah: :shocked2: :cursing: :thumbsup:

 

[longcruise]

Ah-h-h-h! Now, that clarifies it. You are shooting those 10 shots OFF-hand, to test your shooting skills to determine where that First shot from a cold barrel is likely to hit, and how far wide of the mark! This is a very good thing to do.

That's it. :thumbsup:

I'm an advocate of establishing the individual shooters PBR based on the field situation.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The only way you maximize the benefits of this kind of shooting is to literally "KEEP BOOK" on every shot you fire doing this. Then, practice dry firing at home, and continue to lift weights, and practice getting into your stance, until the movement of that front sight gets less and less, and the groups at longer ranges get smaller and smaller. You always want to challenge yourself in practice- shoot at 100 yards, when you already know that you won't take an off-hand shot at more than 50 yards. As you gain skill as a off-hand shooters, then you can let that maximum hunting yardage creep further out.

When I am training shooters, I try to get them to shoot their guns at ranges well beyond whatever they think the gun's "usual " range may be. I will teach them different ways of holding a gun, to shoot smaller groups at longer ranges, both off-hand and using rests of one kind or another. I teach them to use " Kentucky windage", holding over, and off, and letting the dust kicked up near the target to tell them where to hold for the next shot to put it on target.

Once they relax, and begin to enjoy long range shooting, they find they are making shots they thought were impossible.What I am really doing is teaching them to concentrate on that front sight, or part of it, so they reduce the size of their errors at the longer ranges.

Then, I have them come back and shoot off-hand at some target at 50 yards, a more " Normal " range they are used to shooting. Their groups are almost always way smaller than they were before we spent those hours long range shooting. That is when I have them begin shooting at smaller targets- 4 oz. juice cans, or short mushroom cans, then 12 gauge hulls, and on down to .22 rimfire casings. Necco wafers, cracker squares, corn cobs, etc. all make great " exploding" targets that reward the shooter with a wonderful "HIT " when he holds his shot tighter. Then, when I have them do that slow-fire 10-shot group again for the " Book" at the end of the day, they are amazed at how much the groups has shrunk, and how little that front sight seems to move compared to what they remember it did the day or week before. I have them check " the book" they keep, and they now know why I had them shooting at such crazy long ranges with their guns. They also begin a life time of " Keeping book " on their shooting, just like any other bench rest shooter does. The only time they don't keep book is when they are "Plinking" to knock the cobwebs off their shooting skills.

 

[sproulman]

paul has good info on shooting to improve groups.

i take a white cardboard sheet paper.

i take dime and draw circle in middle of white paper.

then i fill it in with a black marker.

this is how i learned to shoot a recurve too.

i sight in crossbows for disabled this way too.

still using it for over 47 years.

sometimes i even go half size on black dot .

 

[longcruise]

The only way you maximize the benefits of this kind of shooting is to literally "KEEP BOOK" on every shot you fire doing this.

I'm able to do this in considerable detail. I have a spreadsheet that works for modern, BPC and ml load data. It includes everything one would ever want to know about the load and shooting performance including velocities, SD and extreme spread.

You can do this effectively using Point Blank also. If you ever look at Idaho Ron's posted targets, they are printed from the Point Blank program. Then, you can either take a photo as he seems to do or you can plot the hits on the target in the program for a digital record within Point Blank.

I don't usually use the Point Blank target because it's a bit hard for me to see clearly.

i take a white cardboard sheet paper.

i take dime and draw circle in middle of white paper.

then i fill it in with a black marker

Wow, don't know how you can see that at longer ranges. :shocked2: I usually use an eight or six inch black or red center with a 1 inch grid overlaying it in a contrasting color visible on white or the color of the bull.

 

[Hawken12]

I use 5 shot groups offhand,at a hundred,then 5 more at 50,for getting ready for hunting,5 after shooting a fouling shot,I find shootin out of a clean barrel,can send a flyer,the day before huntin starts I shoot a fouling shot and wipe the barrel,then load next mornin with a fouled barrel the next day,same as at the range,just the way I do it

 

[paulvallandigham]

If a first shot is thrown outside a group, the usual culprit is a bedding problem. Better to fix that problem than to do what you are doing. But, to each his own.

Smoke the tang, and last 4 inches of the barrel, and see what is touching. If everything is OK, then do the same thing for the front 4 inches, or from the keyway to the forend cap. Sometimes, with stocks that are keyed, it the key itself that throws the shot until recoil moves to a more steady position.

 

[sproulman]

WHITE PAPER is secret.

that black dot will stick out.

i can even use dead on hold too out to 50 yds.

i use 6 o,clock hold sometimes but mostly dead on to 50 yds.

the paper i use is 3 ft long and just about as wide.

the WHITER the paper the better.

only a BLACK DOT works and only 1 in middle.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Try putting up a white sheet of paper, without that aiming point, and shoot a bullet( ball) as close to the middle as you can. Then fire at that ball to see what kind of group you can make. Its good training.

I can't recall ever seeing a bullseye on the side of any deer or other game animal.