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Accidental Discharge Need Help
- Thread starter Kapow
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All top advice and info and I thankyou for taking the time to provide it. I also thankyou for sharing in my humility. I am extremely safety conscious, I am a very competent hunter and this sort of thing doesn't sit well but it is always better to share,dissect and analyse it then to pretend everything is okay and it won't happen again. That is inviting disaster.
I am forming the opinion that compression on the fly by poor woodfit or 'gorilla man' could well be the culprit and that will be my first port of call, but even fixing that I am not satisfied with the safety of the gun given that it covers many miles of hard ground each day.
To give an example, photographing the deer I have shot is always complicated by the rifle sliding down hill while I am taking the picture. Incidentally I believe this is one of the most likely times that a hunter will be shot. The adrenaline has been flowing, he is elated with his prize, perhaps distracted by it and jumping back and forth taking photos on self timer. I know I am buggered after a photo session, taking 10 - 20 self timed photos with 10 secs each frame to get back behind the animal, lift its head and the rifle and look happy whilst sliding downhill!
In relation to protecting the czap from the hammer I will chase up a cap kover and incorporate that into my firing routine. In doing that I should have a completely safe hunting weapon again. Thanks again for all the input and support and I look forward to my next hunt in safety.
I am forming the opinion that compression on the fly by poor woodfit or 'gorilla man' could well be the culprit and that will be my first port of call, but even fixing that I am not satisfied with the safety of the gun given that it covers many miles of hard ground each day.
To give an example, photographing the deer I have shot is always complicated by the rifle sliding down hill while I am taking the picture. Incidentally I believe this is one of the most likely times that a hunter will be shot. The adrenaline has been flowing, he is elated with his prize, perhaps distracted by it and jumping back and forth taking photos on self timer. I know I am buggered after a photo session, taking 10 - 20 self timed photos with 10 secs each frame to get back behind the animal, lift its head and the rifle and look happy whilst sliding downhill!
In relation to protecting the czap from the hammer I will chase up a cap kover and incorporate that into my firing routine. In doing that I should have a completely safe hunting weapon again. Thanks again for all the input and support and I look forward to my next hunt in safety.
Black Hand
Cannon
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Or one of the lock internals (tumbler) may be binding on the wood.necchi said:
100% Correct Jethro!! :thumbsup:Jethro224 said:
Keb
50 Cal.
I'm too lazy to check how this cap cover thingy works but I'd think it'd be just as easy to not cap the gun until yer ready to fire. It can't get no safer than not having it capped.
I'm just sayin...
I'm just sayin...
You're right about that Keb but the issue is time. If you are still hunting or on a stand and in a wooded area with a moving deer- trying to cap a nipple may spook the deer or take too much time. Personally I like the tube over the cap/nipple. You have to cock the hammer anyway so your hand is in the area and it is easy and fast to pull off the tube.
Back in New Hampshire I was sitting against a tree trunk, the deer came in, I waited for it to pass behind a small bush. As soon as it went behind the bush I cocked the hammer, being careful not to "click", all I did was move my thumb and yet the deer's feet (behind the brush) instantly stopped and that deer just melted away. Trying to cap a nipple- I think it would be too much movement and take too long.
Back in New Hampshire I was sitting against a tree trunk, the deer came in, I waited for it to pass behind a small bush. As soon as it went behind the bush I cocked the hammer, being careful not to "click", all I did was move my thumb and yet the deer's feet (behind the brush) instantly stopped and that deer just melted away. Trying to cap a nipple- I think it would be too much movement and take too long.
roundball said:Kap Kovers are so safe and simple to use that "in my opinion" I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to use one from a positive hammer block safety point of view. They're no different than using a Hammer Stall on a Flintlock...it's tethered to the trigger guard, simply lift it off and let go.
I don't care who's fault it is, that all becomes academic when you are in a pine box. In fact I have openly stated how much I am loving the Lyman rifle. The previous deer I shot was off hand and 120 yards up hill and I never felt like I was going to miss his heart.
What I am trying to do is get to the bottom of it. There are several issues at play here.
1. The rifle is not engaging half cock properly.
2. I believe the cup hammer face is too close to the nipple/cap.
3. There is a human element, ie is my sling catching on the hammer and pulling it back enough to discharge the cap?
All I am trying to do is to correct these problems so that I have an accurate AND safe rifle. I tested this rifle extensively at the range before taking it into the field and none of these problems manifested then. BTW the lock performs flawlessly when out of the rifle.
It would be silly to think that these problems couldn't happen to you too, so I have made my problem public. One thing I am absolutely certain of is that the only reason I am able to type this is because of my very strict safety standards regarding the first and second rule of safety, ie always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction & always treat every firearm as if it is loaded.
It occurred to me some time later that if it had've shot me it would've been in the head. My family would never know whether it was an accident or suicide. I know a family who has gone through that scenario and it ate them up pretty bad.
My plan of attack is to investigate the clearance of all moving parts when assembled in the rifle including compression on the lock by overtightening screws. Then I will add a Kap Cover as it is a failproof system that requires absolutely no effort or time to disengage. I will also not hunt with the rifle capped unless in stalking mode. I believe I should be as safe as possible by doing these things.
What I am trying to do is get to the bottom of it. There are several issues at play here.
1. The rifle is not engaging half cock properly.
2. I believe the cup hammer face is too close to the nipple/cap.
3. There is a human element, ie is my sling catching on the hammer and pulling it back enough to discharge the cap?
All I am trying to do is to correct these problems so that I have an accurate AND safe rifle. I tested this rifle extensively at the range before taking it into the field and none of these problems manifested then. BTW the lock performs flawlessly when out of the rifle.
It would be silly to think that these problems couldn't happen to you too, so I have made my problem public. One thing I am absolutely certain of is that the only reason I am able to type this is because of my very strict safety standards regarding the first and second rule of safety, ie always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction & always treat every firearm as if it is loaded.
It occurred to me some time later that if it had've shot me it would've been in the head. My family would never know whether it was an accident or suicide. I know a family who has gone through that scenario and it ate them up pretty bad.
My plan of attack is to investigate the clearance of all moving parts when assembled in the rifle including compression on the lock by overtightening screws. Then I will add a Kap Cover as it is a failproof system that requires absolutely no effort or time to disengage. I will also not hunt with the rifle capped unless in stalking mode. I believe I should be as safe as possible by doing these things.
Kapow: forgive me if I am repeating things you already know but there is a difference between set triggers and non-set triggers. If you have a set trigger and it binds against the wood or isn't adjusted properly then you might have a problem. You might also have a problem if the fly works when the hammer is slightly pulled back by accident.
Let's start with a non-set rigger. I actually prefer these because there is less to go wrong. There is a slot in the half cock notch. If the hammer is pulled back and allowed to fall, the mainspring is acting on the sear and theoretically the sear will go right back into the safe half cock notch. The gun won't fire. The reason this doesn't happen when you fire the gun from a full cock position is because your finger is holding down the trigger ( and therefore the sear) and the tumbler falls without the sear popping up into the half cock notch. On a set trigger once you fire from full cock the pressure of your finger on the trigger has no effect on the sear. This is why a set trigger needs the fly, this fly rides over the half cock notch so the hammer keeps falling.
NOW..what I am not sure about is how all this works if the half cock notch isn't working properly (or even if it is) and the hammer gets jarred back a little- I am not certain whether the fly will or will not work. If it does work- (block the sear from engaging in the half cock notch) then the jarred hammer falls on the cap and fires the gun.
I hope I've explain this clearly- hopefully those better capable of explaining this may join in.
Let's start with a non-set rigger. I actually prefer these because there is less to go wrong. There is a slot in the half cock notch. If the hammer is pulled back and allowed to fall, the mainspring is acting on the sear and theoretically the sear will go right back into the safe half cock notch. The gun won't fire. The reason this doesn't happen when you fire the gun from a full cock position is because your finger is holding down the trigger ( and therefore the sear) and the tumbler falls without the sear popping up into the half cock notch. On a set trigger once you fire from full cock the pressure of your finger on the trigger has no effect on the sear. This is why a set trigger needs the fly, this fly rides over the half cock notch so the hammer keeps falling.
NOW..what I am not sure about is how all this works if the half cock notch isn't working properly (or even if it is) and the hammer gets jarred back a little- I am not certain whether the fly will or will not work. If it does work- (block the sear from engaging in the half cock notch) then the jarred hammer falls on the cap and fires the gun.
I hope I've explain this clearly- hopefully those better capable of explaining this may join in.
I have been in touch with Lyman over this and they have agreed to send me a free new lock to compare with my current one and see if that is the problem. Not feasible to send the rifle back to them as requested so I am satisfied that this is about all they can do. Itll be interesting to have a new one to compare to & I'll keep you up to speed with it.
Anyone who owns a percussion Lyman is crazy if they haven't done a safety test with it. Try capping the rifle and putting the hammer on half cock.
First check & see how much clearance is between the cap and hammer face. It should be a reasonable amount. Second, pull the hammer back about half way or as far as possible before engaging full cock and let it fly forward with a cap on the nipple. Do it several times and make sure the cap does not fire.
Peace of mind for you and me...
Anyone who owns a percussion Lyman is crazy if they haven't done a safety test with it. Try capping the rifle and putting the hammer on half cock.
First check & see how much clearance is between the cap and hammer face. It should be a reasonable amount. Second, pull the hammer back about half way or as far as possible before engaging full cock and let it fly forward with a cap on the nipple. Do it several times and make sure the cap does not fire.
Peace of mind for you and me...
"pull the hammer back about half way or as far as possible before engaging full cock and let it fly forward" Unfortunatly that can break the half cock notch out of a tumbler or the nose off a sear if not both.
