accuracy question

[zimmerstutzen]

When i started in the early 70's, the general rule of thumb was bore caliber in grains of powder, ie 50 caliber, 50 grains. for targets, no more than twice that for hunting. I found for hunting with nearly all my guns, regardless of caliber, that 70 to 80 grains was more then adequate.

It takes some practice to develop a consistent loading technique. Just different pressure when seating the ball from shot to shot can change point of impact. Many folks say it is unnecessary, but I found it depends more on the bore, are you wiping the bore between shots? Keeping the fouling in the bore consistent also makes a difference. At a target session, after I fire a shot, I use one wet patch not dripping wet but almost, up and down several times followed by a dry one up and down several times and then another dry one up and down.

When you pour the powder down the bore do you slap the gun on the side to settle the powder into the flash channel. Target competitors get fairly anal about following the same routine each time. The old joke was that if you farted between two shots, your score would be off if you didn't do it between every shot.

The difference could be hang fires. Some are almost imperceptable but make a difference. And lastly pay double attention to your follow through. Some folks don't realize it but flinch a bit even with a percussion gun.

 

[daniel collums]

my traditions kentucky rifle was doing the same way. i was using 70 grs ffg, it ended up being my patch lube. when i got the right lube the rifle started hitting the mark. i tried more than a few different lubes and ended up buying the mink oil from track of the wolf and this lube fixed my accuracy and it works good in all my rifles. for you first i would clean the manure out of your rifle i even put a thin layer of fine steel wool around my jag with some soap and scrubbed it real good. get some of the mink oil, use a patch that is tight but one that can be loaded with a short starter without a hammer. fix up some 70gr. powder loads get a solid rest, i used a gun vise for target shooting just to be sure i was aiming to the same point. Before firing foul the barrel with a few caps then run a spit patch once then a dry patch, use each side of each patch. then fire and run the spit patch both sides and both sides of a dry patch. do this unless its hard to seat the ball and if it is use 2 spit patches. Trust me if you are not using the mink oil get some i wasted a lot of powder, lead and caps trying to find a load that hit the bullseye. One more thing that is very important when seating the patched round ball don't pound on it or bounce the ramrod on it just push it down to the powder and seat it with a firm push, load the shot the exact same way each time. the way you seat a ball will change your accuracy if not done the same way with each shot.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I strongly suggest you get Dutch Schultz's system for black powder accuracy. He will walk you through each step used to develop the most accurate loads. :idunno:

 

[Tom Hessler]

thanks everyone for the great replys there is alot of good info to digest.
I have been doing the same loading routine every time because I know it does affect accuracy. This is bigger than that though.

Today I shot the bigger load 50 grain instead of 30. The first 5 or 6 shots were great and very pridictable, I figured all was well. Then as I shot more and the barrel heated up it all went bad. In the end I wasn't even hitting the target, they were going every which way.
This tells me the barrel heating up is having a big effect on accuracy.
Possibly the ball is to small and when the barrel heats up its flopping around in there ?!

I am using Pyrodex instead of the real stuff. Does that matter ?
Thanks for any suggestions, Tom

 

[MSW]

A lot of pretty good answers but I am going to give you the secret. Go online and find "Dutch Schoultz Muzzleloading Accuracy System" (http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/). I think he is charging $20 for his information loaded pamphlet. You cannot spend a better $20 on muzzleloading. Thoroughly read it and then re-read it. Then follow what he says to the letter. When you have done this, you will have discovered the absolute best and most accurate load for your rifle.

what that fellow from Texas said ...

here's the link:
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

also, are you wiping between each shot? of course, you only want to change one variable at a time...

good luck, and keep at it - the barrel will settle in and you'll get nice tight groups - anything worth doing well will take some work...

make good smoke!

 

[Zonie]

When the accuracy starts going bad ask someone around to watch where the next shots patches land.

After firing a few rounds, go find the patches. They can tell you a lot about what's happening.

If they are torn or shredded, you've found part of the problem. The solution might be just using more patch lube.
Putting a little filler like corn meal between the powder and the patched ball can also sometimes help.

Some pre-lubed patches are old and they have lost their strength. If your shooting pre-lubed patches try some that have not been lubricated by some factory and lube them yourself.

All patches will have the outer edges tattered and frayed. That's what happens when cloth is subjected to supersonic velocities.
That said, the area where the ball was pinching the patch against the bore should not have any tares, cuts or burned thru areas.
The center of the patch that was behind the ball can be lightly burned without it damaging the accuracy.

If there are cuts that were made by the rifling it indicates the edges of the rifling grooves are too sharp. You can dull them up a bit with a piece of #00 steel wool wrapped around your cleaning jag and then running this up and down the bore at least 50 strokes. Inspect the steel wool and replace it ever 10 strokes if it is worn.

Some folks use Scotch-Brite to do this and while it is OK, it can also remove too much of the rifling corners so go easy with it.

Also, inspect the crown at the muzzle.
Where the rifling intersects it there must be no sharp edges. If the rifling looks sharp, use some fine 320 grit wet/dry sandpaper on your thumb to dull these edges.
You can do this by pushing the flat paper down into the bore and then rotating your thumb from side to side while you turn the barrel slowly.

 

[mooman76]

Sounds like you need to swab the bore. Sometimes depending on the rifle/lube combo it builds up and reduces accuracy. try swabbing every 5 shots or even 3 to see if that helps. As far as Pyrodex goes, you'll get different answers because everyone has their favorite but I've used Pyrodex with good results so that shouldn't be your problem but sometimes switching powders or something else can help.

 

[tenngun]

Right on. You charge as said might be a bit light,but check them patchs.New bores some times cut the patchs,so you'll see if thatsthe problem. An all black patch would show blowby and call for a thicker patch or a better lube.Are you used to the longer lock time ? Shooters used to bolt actions os semi auto some times notice that fall time for the hammer,I've shot rock-in-the-lock for so long I dont notice any more...but.Make only one change at a time.

 

[Tom Hessler]

thanks guys
The patches look fine.
No I am not used to the longer lock time, that is certainly a big adjustment.
I will try 60 grains today. Yesterday the gun was pretty accurate untill the barrel heated up then it went bad.
Thanks, Tom

 

[necchi]

Most times it's not about the barrel "heating up".
With these ML's whether it's true BP or one of the replicas each shot deposits fouling in the bore. For the most part the next patched ball will drag some of the fouling loose when it's loaded, but it still continues to form with each shot.
If nothing is done to the bore to maintain the same amount of fouling deposit after each shot the barrel/bore will continue to get smaller or more constricted. This gradual change as fouling is deposited will cause a change in the rifles group and or completely remove any semblance of a group you had.

Some folks like myself will take an additional step between each shot and use a damp patch and cleaning jag to "wipe" the barrels bore of this fouling. It isn't necessary to completely clean the bore, just one patch down and back once to remove fouling. If this is done each time the rifle is shot, and done the same way each time, the bore will be in identical condition for each shot.

Others will address this issue by using a wetter patch of a homemade lubricant that will wipe the bore while the patched ball is loaded and they can maintain a higher level of accuracy then just the factory lubed patches will allow.

Either way, accuracy is all about finding a loading practice that can be done in a precisely repeatable manner,

Just food for thought, :hmm:

 

[58CAL]

Please DO NOT use Pyrodex!!!!!I had to replace a barrel because of that stuff. I was told about it and didn't believe it till it happened to me. It seems to be preety common knowledge among the more knowledgeable shooters that P dex sucks!!!Powder inc is a really good company to get real black from and its actually cheaper than the P dex by several dollars a pound. Another store owned by a guy that lives and breathes muzzleloading wont even carry it due to its destructive nature. It also seems to affect some mfgrs barrels more than others.Frank

 

[AZbpBurner]

Too many people have used Pyrodex for too many years without any problems whatsoever. I have used it when real BP wasn't available, and have never had any problem with it in any manner. I have one 25 year old rifle in particular that I've never used anything but Pyrodex RS in, and the bore looks the same as I did when I bought it.

The only magic to cleaning the bore afterwards is I go straight home after a day at the range. Don't stop at the bar or the Chinese Buffet. Cleanup is the same as with after any of my guns: Hot soapy water, hot water rinse, WD-40 to dry, and Barricade before putting it in the rack.

Any shortcuts or magic elixirs instead of WATER cleaning invite problems.

 

[Billnpatti]

50 grains of 3f should be your starting load. Start by firing one shot into the bank to foul your bore. Then wipe your bore with a patch dampened with something like straight rubbing alcohol or just water. I have a friend who is a really good shot and he wipes with a 50/50 mixture of Murphy's Oil Soap and water. Dampen your patch and run it down in a single stroke (no pumping). Let is sit for about 10 to 15 seconds and then withdraw it in one single stroke. Turn the patch over and repeat. Then follow with a dry patch running it down in one single stroke and out with a single stroke. Turn the patch over and repeat. No pumping. Do this between every shot.

Use a sand bag on a steady bench to rest your rifle. Always place the same point of the forestock on the sandbag. Always place your cheek exactly the same place on the stock. Always hold exactly the same place on your target regardless of where the bullets are hitting. Never, never change your point of aim and never never change your anchor point for your cheek on your stock. Follow Dutch Schoultz' Black Powder Accuracy System to the letter.

 

[cschibi]

Yeah,

I think Necchi has it right...

It's not about which propellent product your using, but what you do with it..

It's about all the other variables... i.e. powder load, ball size and patch thickness....that all contribute to your individual results with your individual shooting scenario...each one of these have a major contribution to how your shots are placed..

For whatever it's worth... keep track of each variable and the impact that has on your range results...

Humble advice from a newbee! Listen to these guys...

:wink: