Accurcy help

[1vermonter]

Hi all my name is Aaron and I've been stalking this forum for a while. First off thanks to everyone for posting. I am having trouble getting a new to me T/C 50. cal hawken to shoot right. To make a long story short I have spent many hours at the rang with this gun and just can't seem to wrap my head around how to get it to shoot straight out to 100 yards. I have work up a load of 70 grains at 25 yard to were it will make a nice raged hole. For this load I use 70 grains of pyrodex p and a dry patch on top of the charge with a greased patch and .490 ball on top of that. Now to be honest I am new to all this muzzleloading stuff, and don't know how thick my patches are. I use the dry patch because any load over 60 grains really burns up my greased patch.

Then i moved out to 50 yards and worked on sighting the gun in again. I say this because what is dead on at 25 is 8" high and 4"left at fifty. I can get a nice group out to fifty, but when I go to 100 I'm not even on the paper while holding dead on. It would seem I'm low and to the left.

I am no gun expert but I have sighted a few traditional guns in with lot less time and work.

I realize that a pbr is not a conical bullet but my shotgun will make a 3inch group out to 100 yards with slugs, so i guess I'm a little lost. I have order Dutch Shoultz pamphlet but any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Aaron

PS: if this has been talked to death pleas just point me to the older post and I will keep reading.

 

[Ok Bowhunter]

I would recommend that you buy Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Rifle Accuracy system. It is highly recommended and cheap. I just got a copy and it has alot of useful information.

 

[Adui]

Im curious to know the group size at 100 yards. Aim high and right if you have to to get on paper, Put a dot or something on the upper right corner to aim at so you are consistent. Its not going to be on paper at 100, but you should still get a group size or an idea of. If the group size is good, then adjust your sights accordingly. The note where it hits at closer ranges and make corrections when shooting.

Either way, even if the group size is excellent at 100, I too recommend Dutch's system. Im still working out applying the particulars to my shooting, but just reading it and understanding it has helped me tremendously!

 

[Billnpatti]

Absolutely right on the money with your suggestion. :thumbsup:

 

[ohio ramrod]

You are on the right path grasshopper. Just wait until you get Dutch's system and read it well! :idunno:

 

[S.Kenton]

If it were mine I'd most likely start with around 50 grains of Goex fffg, a .015 patch lubed with Olive Oil, veggie oil or crisco and then to top it off a Hornady 490. RB.I would shoot 5 times, off a sturdy rest,before making any changes to the powder charge or patch thickness. Also, try swabbing between shots. I use a concoction of 1 part amonia 1 part murphys oil soap and 1 part rubbing alcohol, I mix about a gallon at a time and pour some into a small spray bottle to use for swabbing between shots. I also use that same stuff as a cleaner at the end of the day..Whatever you do.. keep it consistant when swabbing the barrel, once down and once back up with the cleaning rag...do not pump. I'm sure I've forgot something..maybe some else can chime in.
Just my 2 cents... and no doubt worth every penny!

 

[S.Kenton]

also do you know what your rate of twist is in your rifling? 1:48 and lower should shoot sabots well... 1:48 and higher should shoot Patched round ball. THERE,, now thats my 3 cents... :thumbsup:

 

[1vermonter]

Thanks all for your replies. The gun has a 1 in 48 rate of twist. From what I have gathered from this forum I have been swabbing between shots, and trying to be as consistent as possible in my swabbing and loading procedures. I am definitely looking forward to reading Dutch's pamphlet.

I guess one of the things I am trying to figure out is what is happening to the ball as it travels through space and time.

I don't know a lot about ballistics, let me say that up front. Is the ball not traveling in a linear line as it spirals out of the barrel? In my mind if you can get the gun to shoot a nice group out to, say, 50 yards, where past 50 yards is the ball deciding to deviate from its line of travel? By that I mean in a perfect scenario with no wind or other factor working against the ball.

Thanks Aaron.

 

[mooman76]

RB drops off pretty quick. Isn't as ballistic coefficient as a bullet. Truth is if you aren't hitting paper you don't really know how it is grouping. If it's shooting as good as you say at 50, it should still be reasonably well at 100 also. You need to get it on paper. Adjust the sights or shot at a bigger target to see where you're at before you go off in another direction.

 

[Spikebuck]

Its not going to be on paper at 100,

Why not? Even my big .62 doesn't drop so much from 50 to 100 yards that it's off the paper. My .54 only drops a few inches from 50 to 100.

Some guns and loads may be off the paper at 100 if sighted dead on at 50, but I wouldn't consider it a given. :v

 

[Wes/Tex]

One thing I noticed is that you mentioned your 70 grain charge is with Pyrodex P which is the finer grained powder designed for pistols, which is what the "P" designation signifies. This is probably the reason your patches burn so much. Another item I'n not sure of is your problem with trajectory. Granted, I can only estimate your actual velocity with your load and will estimate around 1800fps. If so, the difference should be about a 6 1/2 to 7 inch drop between 50 and 100 yards. Unless something really odd is going on, you should be hitting back toward, or slightly higher than the first target. Try letting us know the type of material you are using for your patches, type of lube and patch thickness. Hopefully this may help us help you. Good luck and have fun shooting.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I shoot my best groups by using a 6 o'clock hold. I set my sights to hit at 6 o'clock too that way it will hit center when I aim center. The reason for the 6 o'clock hold is I can see where I am holding better. The lighting of the day you shoot makes a difference too. For me dark over cast days produce the smallest groups. while some here wipe after every shot, I use bore butter/wonder lube and don't wipe at all. Your rifle will tell you if you need to wipe after every shot or if you can get away from doing it. For powder I think you will have better results going with either Goex black powder or Triple Seven.

 

[Rifleman1776]

a dry patch on top of the charge with a greased patch and .490 ball on top of that.

At best, that is an unusual way to load. Most ml shooters use a lubed patch with the ball seated over it. Of course the patch surrounds the ball on bottom and sides.
There are many lubes that can be used. A beeswax/oil blend is very popular but you do have a choice of about a skillion others. Stick around here we promise to make you crazy telling you which is best. :wink:
First, most of us prefer real black powder and, personally, I would make that change first.
Your charge is in the ball park but only testing from the bench will tell you what charge will give best groups for your rifle.
From what you say, the rear sight needs a bit of adjustment.
Sighting is best done at 50 yards as the ball is rising a bit still at 25. Expect some drop at 100 yards. Charge can be increased or you can 'kentucky' your hold a bit higher. Experience will tell you how much. Some will use a six-o'clock hold at 50 yards, then a center or top of bull at 100.
As for the rest of my accuracy system. You can find it buried in a brass box near my secret fishing hole. :wink:

 

[1vermonter]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I did a little shopping today and got some new powder, pyrodex rs, I know its not true black powder but it was all I could find in my area. I also went to jo-anns fabric and mict'ed out 3 different weights if pillow ticing. I looked for some balistol but couldn't find any near by so I might try and make a patch of lube with olive oil instead. I wont be able to get to the range till next week but will give an update on what I learn.

Thanks Aaron

 

[Aran]

I recommend adding some beeswax to your lube mix. From what I've learnt on the forum about lube, I use 50/50 beeswax/olive oil by weight. I usually boil some water in the kettle and pour into into a pot and put the beeswax and olive oil in a soup can and into the water. You could melt it any way just make sure its on very low heat.

It Makes quite a hard mixture which, if you make enough, can be used like surfing wax (a bar) that you can just rub on the one side of a strip of patching material. You don't need much at all, just enough to make a waxy surface. You would then use your patch by placing it waxy side down when loading.

Hope this helps :v

Aran

 

[S.Kenton]

I recommend adding some beeswax to your lube mix. From what I've learnt on the forum about lube, I use 50/50 beeswax/olive oil by weight. I usually boil some water in the kettle and pour into into a pot and put the beeswax and olive oil in a soup can and into the water. You could melt it any way just make sure its on very low heat.

It Makes quite a hard mixture which, if you make enough, can be used like surfing wax (a bar) that you can just rub on the one side of a strip of patching material. You don't need much at all, just enough to make a waxy surface. You would then use your patch by placing it waxy side down when loading.

Hope this helps :v

Aran

I've always considered this lube method way too complicated. I know others will disagree...but straight Olive Oil is the simplest and least time consuming lube patch there is...(for me it's the most effective by far), especially if the O.P. is just trying different lubes and has not settled on one that his rifle likes.

 

[nchawkeye]

Pick up some SnoSeal, it's waterproofing for leather boots...It's a mix of bees wax and mineral oil...It's also good for a patch lube...

Many of us have tested several different type lubes before we found the best for our rifles...

Once you find the right powder, lube, patching and diameter ball, those patches will look like you can use them again...

One way to keep an eye on your patches is to lay a tarp about 10-15 paces in front of the muzzle to catch them...Patches are key to tight groups...

 

[D Sanders]

All of the replies regarding Dutch Schultz information is correct. You will have to learn how to read a micrometer in order to know exactly what your patch thickness is. This information will be vital in nailing down what your firearm really likes. A good place to start would be a .015 pillow ticking (100% cotton) patching material, About 70 grains of fff black powder. Maybe also try some ff black powder. It doesn't burn quite so hot, and a .490 ball. Only change one variable at a time to see if and or how things react. Dutches information will walk you through all of these things. You will find the secret and you will be pleasantly surprised.

Good Luck! :wink:
HH 60

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I don't know your background, so all this may be belaboring the obvious, but just to (probably) eliminate one possible variable, I want to ask if you are supporting the rifle the same way & place for at all distances? Resting the forend and/or barrel differently can change point of impact and possibly group size.

Regards,
Joel