Advantages/Disadvantages of 3f with Shot???

[WALT53]

My load after lots of work and paper in a 24 gauge .579 bore 45 grains of 2 f 45 grains of cornmeal 7/8 to 1 oz of shot in a paper shot cup ( 3 wraps of news paper ) and something to hold it in - wasp nest paper wad or thin wad this works for me profs in the pudding.

Hears one more 28 gauge .560 .

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

13K peak with 2F, 16-something with 3F, and 26K peak with 4F.

I can run a specific load/barrel combination if you're curious about specifics. The model doesn't account for wadding shock absorption, vent losses, and assumes no leaks so it is a "worst case".

The model convinced me to switch to 2F in my little 24-gauge Chief's gun because the barrel is only .100" thick at the peak pressure area. Going from 3F to 2F dropped pressure from 15K to 12K while maintaining 1250 fps on 7/8 ounce of shot.

That's a lot more pressure than I figured it would be. Does it mention 4f pressure?

 

[WALT53]

13K peak with 2F, 16-something with 3F, and 26K peak with 4F.

I can run a specific load/barrel combination if you're curious about specifics. The model doesn't account for wadding shock absorption, vent losses, and assumes no leaks so it is a "worst case".

The model convinced me to switch to 2F in my little 24-gauge Chief's gun because the barrel is only .100" thick at the peak pressure area. Going from 3F to 2F dropped pressure from 15K to 12K while maintaining 1250 fps on 7/8 ounce of shot.

Ian was this an actual test that you did on your 24 gauge .I know when I tried 3f it blew a hole my pattern. with wads cornmeal no hole but way wider dencer pattern for sure .

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Okay. So then powder granulation clearly isn't the issue. That seems a pretty reasonable load.
Any idea what the issue actually was? Is 1 inch too small o.d. for a .50 bore? Thin spot at a dovetail? Obstruction?

Operator error. I loaded, got to talking as I waited my turn. Decided I hadn't loaded so I poured powder and short started another ball then started talking again. My name was called and I stepped up and blew my gun all to hell. I am apt to check my load now several times before I shoot.

 

[IanH]

I didn't run a model with 4F in my 24 gauge.

In the 20-gauge with 90 grains 4F and 497 grains of payload the pressure was 26,000 PSI at the peak, double the pressure that the same quantity of 2F generated. The velocity difference was that 4F gained 75 fps for doubling pressure, not a good trade-off in my opinion since 26K psi is almost as high as maximum allowable "Trapdoor Springfield" 45/70 cartridge loads.

 

[IanH]

Ian was this an actual test that you did on your 24 gauge .I know when I tried 3f it blew a hole my pattern. with wads cornmeal no hole but way wider dencer pattern for sure .

No, just an internal ballistic program tuned to work with black powder. I have found it quite accurate compared to actual measured velocity with round ball, so I assume the pressure curves and peak pressure values it calculates are also fairly accurate.

 

[Sam squanch]

These days it’s use what you have on hand…..

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

These days it’s use what you have on hand…..

I'm not having trouble find any amount of powder I want. It's fully available.

 

[Sam squanch]

There is a difference between the guys that have retired and paid everything off, and the guys trying to raise 4 kids, pay a mortgage, and buy groceries. No insults to anyone out there intended.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

There is a difference between the guys that have retired and paid everything off, and the guys trying to raise 4 kids, pay a mortgage, and buy groceries. No insults to anyone out there intended.

Yep. And I had to make my own stuff back then too. Only way I could play the game. Also turned into a full time living . I had to sew all my own clothes, make all my own shooting bags and make all the rifles too. That's what everyone did back then. There was no money to be had.

 

[NorthFork]

What do you want/need to do with your smoothbore?

Target games, ie- trap, sporting clays, or skeet? Then load FG or FFG and enjoy wonderful patterns. Do your thing and enjoy it! Do you hunt? Well then you'd better think about FFFG or maybe even FFFFG.

For rabbits and squirrels anything will work from 7 1/2 shot to 4 shot (lead) or 7 shot to 3 shot (bismuth) and any reasonable charge of FG, FFG or FFFG.

However if you desire killing shots, not knock out of the air and have to pursue and wring necks, on larger birds such as pheasant, Canada geese, cranes, turkey, and the like, you need to consider a finer powder than FG or even FFG. Geese for example take big shot and high velocity/energy/momentum to cleanly kill. I use 1 3/4 ounce of BB or #2 Bismuth in my 10 guage over top of 100 grains of FFFG or even FFFFG to obtain the velocity/energy/momentum needed to cleanly kill these large birds. FG or FFG only knocks them down. Then I'm running or wading out to wring necks. Screw that. Kill them in the air. My Pedersoli Waterfowl Magnum 10 guage has not blown up yet and has slaughtered........er.... filled my freezer with countless geese now using FFFG or FFFFG. No pursuing or wringing necks.

People like to discount @Britsmoothy and his experiences with smoothbores and game hunting. Folks should not do that. He tries to offer constructive advice and folks seem to disregard it as BS. Well he has probably killed more game with BP smoothbores than anyone else on this forum. Might want to listen to his advice.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

What do you want/need to do with your smoothbore?

Target games, ie- trap, sporting clays, or skeet? Then load FG or FFG and enjoy wonderful patterns. Do your thing and enjoy it! Do you hunt? Well then you'd better think about FFFG or maybe even FFFFG.

For rabbits and squirrels anything will work from 7 1/2 shot to 4 shot (lead) or 7 shot to 3 shot (bismuth) and any reasonable charge of FG, FFG or FFFG.

However if you desire killing shots, not knock out of the air and have to pursue and wring necks, on larger birds such as pheasant, Canada geese, cranes, turkey, and the like, you need to consider a finer powder than FG or even FFG. Geese for example take big shot and high velocity/energy/momentum to cleanly kill. I use 1 3/4 ounce of BB or #2 Bismuth in my 10 guage over top of 100 grains of FFFG or even FFFFG to obtain the velocity/energy/momentum needed to cleanly kill these large birds. FG or FFG only knocks them down. Then I'm running or wading out to wring necks. Screw that. Kill them in the air. My Pedersoli Waterfowl Magnum 10 guage has not blown up yet and has slaughtered........er.... filled my freezer with countless geese now using FFFG or FFFFG. No pursuing or wringing necks.

People like to discount @Britsmoothy and his experiences with smoothbores and game hunting. Folks should not do that. He tries to offer constructive advice and folks seem to disregard it as BS. Well he has probably killed more game with BP smoothbores than anyone else on this forum. Might want to listen to his advice.

If you're shooting 1 3/4 shot you need to up your powder volume, not decrease the size of your powder granules. You're going to get much better patterns with courser powder. I'd start with equal volumes of 2f powder and shot and go from there. I can guarentee you your pattern center is non existant or very sparse with 3f or especially 4f.

 

[IanH]

If you're shooting 1 3/4 shot you need to up your powder volume, not decrease the size of your powder granules.

THIS.

Seems so basic?

I'm not arguing either "side" of this but the facts are there is a trade-off between granulations. Muzzleloaders are not limited in charge volume like cartridges are, so it makes no sense to me to use a smaller granulation to get higher velocity/killing power at the cost of an extreme bump in pressure....just add more of the larger granulation until you get the velocity needed while staying in a reasonable pressure zone, then work your column for patterns. Downloading a finer granulation to keep it in the "safe" zone pressure-wise is going to decrease velocity compared to what a larger granulation can deliver.

So far the only argument I get for finer granulations is more speed. This is simply balderdash unless I'm missing something really obvious to those that use 4F as a main charge for large birds. What am I missing?

 

[oldschoolhunter55]

I've seen a few of Numb's products - very nice work!

Cranberries! More like dingle berries iffn ya knows what they is!

lol

 

[IanH]

lol

He missed the "o" and typed "i" which made a word that the software is set to auto edit.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I've got a pair of 13- gauge, a 12-gauge, two 24-gauges and a 20-gauge. I use 3F in all of them. Equal volume of powder to shot most days, rarely for duck or turkey I load an 1/8 oz more volume shot than powder in the 12 or 20. I'm averaging 600 shots per year, mostly in the two 13-guage guns, but at the end of this season, I'll be in the high 700's. Unlike a solid projectile, there are a number of barriers between the powder and shot. If the cards/wads/whatever are a tight fit making a decent seal, all the gas is behind them so "blowing the pattern" doesn't seem likely. I do nearly all my upland and waterfowl shooting with BP smoothbores. Find what consistently makes a good pattern and stick to it. Personally, I use 2 hard "nitro" cards over powder and a thin "over shot" card on top in the 24's and 20. I put the first card in dry and the second I dampen in my mouth. With the 12 and 13's I might put 3 nitro cards or 2 and an over shot card on top of the powder depending how heavy a load I am shooting. #5 shot is pretty versatile for birds, squirrels and rabbits. A bit large for a dove, quail or woodcock and way big for a snipe, but you use what you have!

 

[Britsmoothy]

I didn't run a model with 4F in my 24 gauge.

In the 20-gauge with 90 grains 4F and 497 grains of payload the pressure was 26,000 PSI at the peak, double the pressure that the same quantity of 2F generated. The velocity difference was that 4F gained 75 fps for doubling pressure, not a good trade-off in my opinion since 26K psi is almost as high as maximum allowable "Trapdoor Springfield" 45/70 cartridge loads.

Why the heck would you use 90 gn of 4f in a 20g.
60 or less would be ample, what's your thingy say then?

 

[Britsmoothy]

. I can guarentee you your pattern center is non existant or very sparse with 3f or especially 4f.

Money back guarantee?

 

[Britsmoothy]

So far the only argument I get for finer granulations is more speed. This is simply balderdash unless I'm missing something really obvious to those that use 4F as a main charge for large birds. What am I missing?

What you are missing is, economy, you use less, when you use less the burn is peaking earlier, the further away from the muzzle peak P is the better.

I don't care what your pooter says re velocity.
In the real world it works and my testing reveals better pellet penetration and birds falling out of the sky, not bits of clay being chipped.

 

[IanH]

60 grains of 4Fg Swiss in a 20 gauge, 41" barrel, models 21,631 PSI max at 1,222 FPS.

90 grains of 2Fg model at 13,100 PSI and 1,302 FPS.

The only advantage of the finer powder that I can see is it all burns up in 12-15" in virtually every model I played with and this the muzzle pressure is dramatically lower than either 3F or 2F in all cases. Comparing the two above, 4F had a muzzle pressure of 282 PSI, a touch over half that of the 2F.

The disadvantage other than the obvious huge jump in peak pressure for 4F is that the peak occurs almost instantly, as in a tenth of an inch of payload travel as opposed to three tenths for the 2F. This is where your shot pellets get crushed and hurt your pattern if you don't use extra buffer.

My question is dies the lower muzzle pressure of the finer powder improve patterns?