Advantages/Disadvantages of 3f with Shot???

[IanH]

This is quite an interesting discussion, and I'm genuinely trying to learn something here.

Assumptions. Yes, the mother of all buggar-ups. I assume you are overstressing your gun at 20-26 thousand PSI and you disagree. Why do I think that? Because modern, 12-gauge nitro loads intended for modern steel breech loaders with space-age cushion wads and reinforced case heads the pressures for 2-3/4" shells are limited to 11,500 PSI. Some of the black powder loads discussed here are 2.5 times that much pressure. I don't know why this doesn't concern you, but would like to know. The vented breech reduces pressure, but how much? I cannot determine that. Perhaps someone else has?

Several people here have found good reason to use finer granulations of powder for their hunting loads, mainly because it seems more effective at cleanly killing game. I am trying to discover why that is so.

A few things that would aid the discussion:

• How much pressure is generally accepted as safe for each gauge of vented-breech, muzzleloading shotgun using black powder propellant? Is all this concern of overpressure much ado about nothing?
• How much pressure is decreased by the flash hole venting? What size flash hole is being used?
• Is pellet velocity the determining factor for lethality, and if so, is more always better?

What makes smaller charges of 4F more lethal to geese than larger charges of 2 or 3F? I think I've clearly shown that you aren't gaining any velocity by using slightly reduced amounts of finer granulations, so really, what is happening?

Looking at expansion ratios and modeled pressure curves for the various gauges, it does seem to me that the bigger the bore, the more benefit would come from faster-burning powder from an efficiency standpoint, yet the trend is the bigger the bore, the larger the granulation. Cannon take powder granules the size of small gravel....but why? (I know why, it has to do with keeping pressure levels safe with payloads weighing pounds, a pretty simple mass vs. acceleration problem with a propellant that generates pressure very rapidly. It is not a matter of efficiency or muzzle pressure but purely keeping the gun from exploding).

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I've been shooting muzzleloaders for 43 years
In that time I have found that mass kills. Not velocity. Both in rifles and shotguns. Pheasant loads in a 12 bore I use equal volumes of 2f, 1 1/4 shot loads with #4 shot. If I hit a bird it's going down.
I have shot a lot of BPC shotguns. I was always told the pressure was around 6k. I could make smokeless loads for skeet that were at 3k.
Going over 10k with muzzleloaders new or old is not wise. It will eventually catch up with you.
You get your best shot patterns with a push, not a sharp kick in the azz.

 

[Britsmoothy]

This discussion has been done over and over and over.
A few of us have just gone and tried it and get it, no regrets.
The rest are either not interested, fine.
Just plain scared, fine.
Or are self proclaimed experts that like to inject doubt in a vein attempt to propel themselves. Not good.

For example, sneaking in a phrase like "space age cushion wads"! What the hell has the space age gotta do with an ancient form of shooting?

How many times have read articles and anecdotes where upon someone has decided to sift the fines from their powder stock only to be surprised how much dust was in it. How come they didn't die before they shifted it?

I assume you are overstressing your gun at 20-26 thousand PSI and you disagree.

You got that first bit correct and thus have no accurate measure of what any of my guns have been subjected to so yep, I disagree.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I was always told the pressure was around 6k.

Assuming again, statement has zero value.

Going over 10k with muzzleloaders new or old is not wise. It will eventually catch up with you.

Present your evidence, otherwise statement also has zero value.

You get your best shot patterns with a push, not a sharp kick in the azz.

Says who? Another valueless comment.

So what you are saying is that anyone that loads smokeless cartridges with Alliant Red Dot are wrong and should be using Green Dot?
Or is it ok if the Red Dot user's buy extra soft super comfy wumfy cushion wads?

 

[Robin101]

I am curious about the powder itself. Is 4f powder in England the same as 4F powder here in the States, like Goex?
Robin

 

[Sparkitoff]

When I ask a major manufacturer of modern muzzleloading shotguns what powder granulation to use, their response is a very generic "Make sure it is black powder or a black powder substitute. Pyrodex is an acceptable black powder substitute. Smokeless powder is dangerous and not acceptable in any form in muzzleloading arms". So, here's the twist - Pyrodex comes in 2F and 3F granulations. Secondly, why didn't they specify a granulation for black powder if it was important or one type was potentially dangerous? I mean, that IS the question that I asked, and it was not directly answered. Maybe some of you should send an email asking the same question. Possibly wording the question more eloquently will get a more specific answer. Or maybe a different person responding will be more specific. I contacted the proof house(s) but have not received a response from them about what modern BP proof means regarding pressure or powder granulation, and if this has changed over time.

 

[stikshooter]

I need my hips and knees replaced since I can't walk far anymore, especially in tall grass. I have the dog and gear and used to bird hunt quite a bit up until 5 years ago or so.
And, unlike most people, I don't tend to record every moment of my life with photos.
I tied a national record in the flintlock feather duster at friendship in 1986 and am an avid skeet shooter with flintlocks. I have never shot a pheasant that I didn't use black powder. Doves too.
Not that anybody really cares except for you.

I suspect our British friend just posts the (NUMEROUS EXCEPTIONAL) ones , and you resent all the info from someone else that shares different experiences (4F powder) and lots of lead as providing for his dinner
and (his dog). How did the feather duster taste back in 86 ? Inquiring minds would like to know !

 

[Britsmoothy]

I am curious about the powder itself. Is 4f powder in England the same as 4F powder here in the States, like Goex?
Robin

Zonie, God rest his soul encouraged me to do some measuring.
At the time I was using powder branded fine.
It's not the best by a long ways and has equal parts of size 4&3 f.
I've since acquired better powder of 3 f.
Here is a comparison.

Nothing in it difference wise, certainly not to twist up any ones panties!

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I suspect our British friend just posts the (NUMEROUS EXCEPTIONAL) ones , and you resent all the info from someone else that shares different experiences (4F powder) and lots of lead as providing for his dinner
and (his dog). How did the feather duster taste back in 86 ? Inquiring minds would like to know !

Oh boy! More insults! Winning that feather duster was GREAT!. You should go do it. Do you think you could? I did it with a 20 bore with a 42" barrel and a flintlock to boot. As far as what our British "Friend" does or says I wouldn't have a clue. he is the only person I have blocked on the internet in my life. Before I blocked him I assumed he doesn't have a clue what he's doing and got rid of his annoying posts. Life is better now.
As far as "taste" goes, you're assuming I don't hunt with black powder shotguns. You'd be wrong.

 

[IanH]

I was trying to get to the bottom of this, but I see there's no point in continuing the discussion if not all interested parties have any facts regarding the particulars.

I also see this is a very old argument, and why it was never resolved to the enlightenment of anyone.

I'll stick to my calculations (verified via chronograph as to velocity) and continue to stay under what I consider safe maximum pressure levels.

 

[Britsmoothy]

 

[Robin101]

Thank yo Britsmoothy for the picture. I'm still not sure if I understand the classification correctly.
I just took this picture of Goex powder in three sizes
The 2F averages about .050-.062, or about a 1/16" depending where on its irregular shape you measure.
The 4F measures about .005" before it compresses to an even finer dust!

Hope this helps clarify things.
Robin

 

[IanH]

From what I gather there is a range to the modern sporting grades (and all others as well), similar to sandpaper and loose abrasive grit. 2Fg will pass a 16 mesh screen but not 30, 3Fg will pass 20 but not 50, and 4Fg passes 40 but not 100. There is also a small allowable percentage of granules over and under the stated mesh sizes.

This is how I grade my homemade powder.

"Fine" powder 300 years ago may have been more like 1.5Fg.

 

[Britsmoothy]

"Fine" powder 300 years ago may have been more like 1.5Fg.

Do you have a reference to that statement?
Please.

 

[OldSmoky1967]

Hi folks... I am still fairly fresh to the Smoothbore game (couple years now) and am exploring advice as much as possible to help in my journey. I played around with a 20 ga French Trade gun about 20 some odd years ago, but was pretty seasoned with a 50 cal Flinter though. I am currently shooting a .560 Early Trade Gun and am trying to work up loads for various critters. I will have a new 20 ga Early Trade Gun coming soon as well...

This question is about "shot" for both the fur and feathered kind. I am swimming in 3f and not a single can of 2f right now. I have a large stock of #5 shot to play around with. So my question as in the title: What are the Advantages/Disadvantages of 3f with Shot? Is 2f the general rule with shot? Do any of you use 3f for primary shot loads out of your smoothbores? Can you use less 3f in place of 2f for pushing shot? Very eager to here from you "experienced" Smoothbore shooters about this subject, and certainly do appreciate your wisdom. Joel

Reduce the powder charge by about 20% as it is stronger than 2F.

 

[nit wit]

And now I notice you're a moderator taking a cheap **** at me. SHAME!

You are the King of cheap shots and rude comments! It's too bad because you are one of the most knowledgeable people on her. You are close to being asked to take a long vacation.
Nit Wit

 

[Sparkitoff]

In revisiting this, I did learn something from the proof house. First, they no longer proof or re-proof black powder muzzleloading arms. You can get a black powder cartridge gun proofed but that is not relevant here. Next, a lot of muzzleloading arms were pre-proof house and were never proofed. Some that were, were done with the same method. They said historically, with muzzleloader shotguns they used "twice the standard load of powder and shot relative to bore, the powder being a bulk fine grade powder". Specifically, they said for a 12-gauge the powder and shot would be 61 grams each. 16-gauge would be 57 grams each, 20-gauge is 50 grams. I'm not sure how to convert the grams but I think this is essentially a double dose of powder and shot. When I pressed about powder granulation and talked about 2F, 3F, etc. I was told powder was not always labeled and marketed like that when black powder muzzleloader proofing was going on, and that bulk powder was graded as Fine or Course, Fine being used at the Proof House.

 

[Britsmoothy]

In revisiting this, I did learn something from the proof house. First, they no longer proof or re-proof black powder muzzleloading arms. You can get a black powder cartridge gun proofed but that is not relevant here. Next, a lot of muzzleloading arms were pre-proof house and were never proofed. Some that were, were done with the same method. They said historically, with muzzleloader shotguns they used "twice the standard load of powder and shot relative to bore, the powder being a bulk fine grade powder". Specifically, they said for a 12-gauge the powder and shot would be 61 grams each. 16-gauge would be 57 grams each, 20-gauge is 50 grams. I'm not sure how to convert the grams but I think this is essentially a double dose of powder and shot. When I pressed about powder granulation and talked about 2F, 3F, etc. I was told powder was not always labeled and marketed like that when black powder muzzleloader proofing was going on, and that bulk powder was graded as Fine or Course, Fine being used at the Proof House.

28 grams to an ounce.

Thanks.

 

[Felonious]

I shoot 3f (it's what's locally available) out of my SxS smoothbore. Never had an issue, and it patterns well.

 

[MTplainsman]

I shoot 3f (it's what's locally available) out of my SxS smoothbore. Never had an issue, and it patterns well.

Whats your load design? ...shot and powder charge size, wadding, etc. Thanks