Ahm a Pyrodex Man....

[ryoung14]

...thet's whut I yaammm! :grin:

Seriously, it's no hassle to get the stuff around here, it's cheaper than real BP and it's always treated me right. The question is; when is it safe to substitute Pyro P for RS in large bore (.50 & .54) rifles?

I know you have to reduce the charge, but how much? Can it be used at reduced charge rates behind conicals or is it strictly a roundball propostion? Will it deliver full power performance or will pressure get high before the velocity is delivered? I would think the faster burn rate would be an advantage in short-barreled carbines.

Monday I tried 75 gr. of P in my .54 Hawken (slow twist) shooting roundball. Normally I shoot 90 gr. RS with very good accuracy and little recoil. The P kicked significantly harder, the gun hit about 3" higher at 65 yds. and the grouping wasn't as good.

I once developed a very accurate load for my T/C Greyhawk using a 295 gr. Black Belt conical and 80 gr. of P. Talking to a T/C tech, I happened to mention it and was told not to use P with that load; only RS was approved. I figured at some level of reduction there would be an equivalence, but not according to the tech. Yet the Investarms manuals that came with my Cabela carbine and my GPR say the max load behind a .50 conical is either 80gr. of ffg or 60gr. of fffg...and makes no mention of Pyrodex, either RS or P.

P burns very clean in my .32 and .36, that's why I want to try it in the larger bores. That, and I hear you guys talking about using fffg for everything....shouldn't P work nearly as well?
Bob

 

[roundball]

Industry rule of thumb when using 3F is to reduce 2F load data by 15%...if you would normally use 100grns of 'RS', just use 85grns of 'P'

 

[Rebel]

Just cut your charge by 15 percent and it should be fine. I used it for years before i got into flintlocks. Never had much problem and used P in most everything except my .12 ga. Got better ignition with it. Never have a problem with the RS in my . double .12 ga.. but the nipple has a straight shot to the powder in that one.

 

[Pittsburghunter]

With real bp and Triple Se7en easy to obtain I have sworn off Pyrodex, well actually keep giving it to my boys for target shooting as I am done with the stuff.

I have been told that the P is not very good in rifles and has a higher pressure curve than 3F but I do not know this for fact. I was just told that.

The one can of P that I own I have put in my .32's range box to try in my Crockett some day.

Before Y2K I bought 10 pounds of RS and still have seven of them. lol

 

[Rebel]

P is all i used in my Crocketts. Worked great in them. And i got good ignition with it.

 

[Zonie]

For what it is worth here are a few comparisons based on the Lyman BlackPowder Handbook 2nd Ed:

50 cal 28" bbl, 1:48 twist

roundball GOEX FFg given as charge, MV, Pressure
70,1471,5,800
80,1573,6,400
90,1651,7,000
100,1729,7,500
110,1768,7,700

roundball GOEX FFFg given as charge, MV, Pressure
60,1566,7,500
70,1657,8,500
80,1748,9,500
90,1830,9,900
100,1911,10,200
110,1963,10,300

roundball Pyro RS given as charge, MV, Pressure
70,1548,6,000
80,1677,7,000
90,1725,8,600
100,1773,10,200
110,1832,11,400

roundball Pyro P given as charge, MV, Pressure
60,1470,4,300
70,1567,5,200
80,1663,6,100
90,1720,7,300
100,1776,8,400
110,1810,9,000
I have no idea why the pressures and velocitys are lower with the Pyrodex P than the Pyrodex RS but that's what the book says.

Before I leave the .50, here are a few loads, velocities, and pressures with a Buffalo Conical, 350 grain slug. Same barrel
GOEX FFg
80,1362,11,700
90,1432,11,900
100,1503,12,100

Pyrodex RS
80,1416,10,400
90,1463,11,800
100,1510,13,200
110,1534,14,200
No DATA for Pyrodex P with any slugs

In the .54 cal 32 inch bbl, 1:60 twist with roundball
Pyrodex RS
80,1555,6,000
90,1628,6,300
100,1701,6,600
120,1807,7,100

Pyrodex P
80,1501,4,700
90,1558,5,100
100,1615,5,600
120,1730,6,300
This seems to agree with the .50 caliber data saying the Pyrodex P pressures and velocitys are lower than the Pyrodex RS. Again, I have no idea why.
NO DATA for Pyrodex P with any slugs :hmm:

 

[harryo]

This seems to agree with the .50 caliber data saying the Pyrodex P pressures and velocitys are lower than the Pyrodex RS. Again, I have no idea why.
NO DATA for Pyrodex P with any slugs :hmm:

I noticed the same thing when I looked in my Lyman Blackpowder Handbook. The Pyrodex P produces lower pressures and velocity than the RS. I would have expected the opposite.

 

Personally Bob, I'm done with Pyrodex. Yes it's far easier to obtain than Black Powder but I find it to be more corrosive as well as more expensive. I paid $11.50 for the last pound of Black Powder I bought. Pyrodex is going for between $16.00 to $17.00 per pound. Furthermore, I've been doing a lot of research on the subject and have found that Pyrodex is infact worse than BP insofar as corrosivity & toxicity. Pyrodex contains perchlorate which is found to cause such problems as Thyroid damage as well as birth defects. Pyrodex also contains organic cyanide.

 

[faw3]

I just had to look that up..it just doesnt sound right but is did you see how it spread with a 32". Sam seemed to think it was great for 32/36s(P that is) myself that stuff rust like crazy down here(the air is 100 % water) perchlorate is great bomb stuff think I'll still not use it 777 may cost some more but for target work when you dont want to clean every few shoots with BP it works just great for me. And as you said No Slugs of any kind after 45 . Fred :hatsoff: it still dont sound right.

 

[Runner]

I prefer black, but I shoot a lot of Pyrodex these days. It is a little over an hour 1 way to buy a can of black here these days. That is if the traffic is good. I can buy Pyrodex five minutes away. I decided to wait until Wally World did their yearly closeout. I stocked up on all the RS I will likely ever shoot at 5$ a can. That is less than half the price of even the cheapest black delivered. At 5$ a pound, I like Pyrodex just fine. The Mountain rifle and the 12 guage love the stuff.

 

[roundball]

I'm slowly using up my supply of PyrodexRS that I also got at a year end Walmart close out years ago...got about 10 lbs at $8-9/lb as I recall.

I'm working off the last few pounds of it at the range with 20grns Goex 3F ignitor charge downbore first...works perfectly...and I clean my rifles 100% thoroughly the same no matter what powder I use so I don't worry about it...the cleaning is never an issue to me and I don't search for different powders as a means to try and avoid it...will be burning up some more this Saturday.
:thumbsup:

 

Runner, Pyrodex shoots fine in allof my caplocks too. As I said, I find it to be more corrosive and harder to clean than BP. Granted, I have to drive approx. 1 hour to get the BP but I make it worth while in that I'll buy 5 pounds at time. There is one BP substitute that I'm interested in trying and that is the Pinnacle powder from Goex. Have'nt found anyone in the area that sells it though. I called the Goex company in Louisiana and they said they would send me what I wanted at what I believe was around $18.00 per pound plus the Hazmat fee. I did'nt bite. The last time I bought a pound of Pyrodex it cost me $17.00 a pound. The last time I bought some Goex BP it only cost me $11.50 per pound. I'll admit that it's dirtier but it seems to clean up easier than Pyrodex for me.

 

[rengde54]

When I first got into muzzloading, I tried Pyrodex becasue it was available at Wal*Mart and that is where I had bought my muzzleloader at. I then tried 2f Black Elephant Powder. Both of these were dirty and hard to clean. I switched to 3f Goex and have used nothing else since.

 

What caliber are you using?

 

[marwat06]

P burns very clean in my .32 and .36, that's why I want to try it in the larger bores. That, and I hear you guys talking about using fffg for everything....shouldn't P work nearly as well?

When I was using Pyrodex P in my 50 cal hawkins, I didn't get very good results. RS worked better in my case. Now I use Goex BP ffg. Like most things about M/Ling ... go with what works best for your setup.

 

[ryoung14]

Thanks to all for the replies, especially to Zonie for taking time to post that data.

Reading the Lyman data it seems perfectly safe to substitute P for RS in equal amounts. Yet, in my limited experience using P in my .54 with PRB, that would've been a mistake. Even with a reduction of greater than 15%, the gun bucked and kicked much harder with 75 gr. of P than with 90 gr. of RS.

I've got a copy of the new Lyman manual on order and was hoping it would answer questions like these, but it appears that it only raises new questions. Sam Fadala's pretty sharp, I doubt he'd let anything that seems like an obvious error slip by without double checking.

Runner, your situation is similar to mine. When I lived in Indiana, I stocked up on RS thanks to end of year closeouts at Wal-Mart. Since moving to NY, it's a 25 mile one-way drive to get real BP. Maybe when I work through my stockpile, I'll shift to the real thing as Wal-Mart here in NY doesn't stock much Pyrodex. It works well in my caplocks, it smells about the same and, to my mind, being a little less sensitive than BP is an advantage from a safety standpoint.

I've never noticed an unusual problem with cleanup or fouling when using loose Pyrodex; but I haven't used real BP so cannot compare. I've heard arguments both ways on this. Shooting loads that are well below max may explain my luck with Pyrodex.

Pyrodex pellets are another matter. They leave a hard crusty fouling that's tough to get out at the range. I'd always blamed it on the BP igniter the pellets have on one end. I don't even use pellets in the inlines anymore.

Well thanks for the enlightenment. One thing for sure; after hearing about the perchlorate and cyanide, I'm not gonna inhale anymore when I blow down the barrel :grin: .
Bob

 

Short Start, one other thing to bear in mind concerning Pyrodex. Once exposed to air it starts to deteriorate. That canister you opened up in July will not give you the same performance in November. I also realize thet a lot ofolks would'nt still be using that same one pound canister four months later, but then again there are plenty who still would.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I agree, the Lyman BP handbook is the best source of info we have but I've also noticed some things which seem to raise more questions.
In the case of Pyrodex I think we just have to accept that it doesn't behave like black powder in the same predictable fashion. Some loads of 3f Goex also show less pressure than 2f Goex, go figure.

 

[Charley Hart]

Here in Missouri BP is easy to come by I mainly use whatever shoots in that particular gun.

I have used all flavors of pyrodex, P was the best in my case cause I could shoot my hawken and pistols with the same stuff. RS worked well too. Select was a bit hot, but worked.

Well I have to say that IMO use what works as long as it is BP or one of the substitutes out there.

I don't care if it is corrosive as long as it performs. Cleaning is fine as long as it is ONE gun. I have gotten smarter and limit the number of firearms that go to the range!

 

[Runner]

Funny, I live 30 miles south of the arch and it is a 35 mile, over an hour drive if the traffic is good to the closest source for real black. Dunn's doesn't carry it. Dennison's doesn't either anymore. When you get to Graf's, if you are lucky, they will have 3f half the time. They will not order any in for you if you want to try a can of Swiss or another brand. They are not even ordering and keeping their own label anymore. So where is it that you live that the insurance companies, township orders, and federal BS has not run all the vendors away? No where near St. louis.