Allen Hawken rifle.

[OldMaineWoodsman]

Here are some images of one of Bridger's rifles, along with an image of the lock of the Kit Carson rifle.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

This is mine. Built by Brant Selb of Oregon.

The Allen Hawken was a nice rifle. I saw one for sale many years ago in a gun shop in Florida. Very well made and solid.

 

[user 36911]

The wood on the Bridger gun is what i'm used to seeing. Very plain.

 

[andy52]

Here's one from the Cody Museum it's figured and considering it's age could have be highly when made.
Hawken Rifle | The Gun Vault - Cody Firearms Museum - YouTube

 

[user 48679]

This gennie's stock has some figure

 

[user 36911]

Ok, some did have some and others none. I'm going with the look of Bridger's.

 

[Robert an saa fan]

You are going to like your Allen Uberti Hawken.

Got mine in about 95% condition at a gun show years ago. It takes the .520 patched round ball, not the .526 p r b.

Do wish the hammer spur was a little bit higher. It is a lot of fun to shoot.

 

[andy52]

You are going to like your Allen Uberti Hawken.

Got mine in about 95% condition at a gun show years ago. It takes the .520 patched round ball, not the .526 p r b.

Do wish the hammer spur was a little bit higher. It is a lot of fun to shoot.

I had to order some .520 balls because I don't have balls or a mold that size. when I get it I'll let you guys know how it shoots.

 

[andy52]

Ok, some did have some and others none. I'm going with the look of Bridger's.

I'm sure it was what you were willing to pay even 200 years ago. Basically the difference between the walnut stocked Pedersoli you have and the maple stocked one I showed, a costumer could get whatever they could afford.

 

[user 36911]

Yes, and what mountain men bought i'm sure was the plain one. I'll go with that.

 

[jcs266]

Very nice rifle! Uncluttered as far as stampings and I like that brown finish.

 

[rickystl]

Congrats. Nice find. Once a a while, one of these earlier replicas pops up for sale. Nice to see photos of that again. Brings back memories of the Hawken craze during the 1970's. Thanks for posting. Nice rifle.

Rick

 

[muzzlecap]

Very nice Hawken. Would love to find one.

 

[beardedhorse]

Who is this Allen you refer to and what was the name of his company? Pedersoli takes liberties on its interpretation of the Hawken. The extra fancy hammer is unusual. The wood in front of the lock plate right of the snail cut out should flow right into the top of the lock plate. A distinguishing feature of real Plains Hawkens and wannabes is that when the barrel is pointed straight up, the heel always touches the ground and the toe does not. There is a slight swell to the forestock on half stocks. Lock panels can be tapered and slightly sloping rather than parallel to the octagon flats of a straight barrel. Compare photos and if fortunate enough to view and handle originals compare to Cabelas, Traditions, Lyman, Pedersoli, Thompson Center. CVA versions. The Cherry Corners, Ithaca, Navy Arms and Uberti has a heavier barrel due to a slightly smaller than .54 bore diameter. John Baird had some hand in getting a company to make a copy from possibly the Santa Fe Hawken owned by Kit Carson or a Bridger original in Montana. The Hawken Shop in St. Louis and then bought by a new owner in Washington marketed castings made from original Hawken parts. The original owner had a plenty good collection of originals and went out of the way to point out unique Hawken features. Other than a few custom makers most cheaper knock offs are not close to the lines and construction of Sam and Jake's product. The Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, Nebraksa and Jim Gordon's museum in Glorieta, New Mexico are two very good places to look at the real deal. Some in the Cody, Wyoming firearms museum. Short of seeing them in person, there are a lot of good pictures in gun books about Hawkens. As you get to handle more and more originals, the distinctions between them and the knock offs are pretty obvious. This applies mainly to the big bore classic full and half stocks. Smaller caliber sporting Hawkens did not always look like the double key half stocks and some had cast nosecaps. Details in the hooked breech (straight for earlier and slanted for later), scroll on the end of the trigger guard, designs of lock bolt inlays, solder joints and filling on underbarrel ribs, even design of rear sights can help you determine when in the history of the Hawken shop a rifle was made. Track of the Wolf offers o.k. parts and kits for recreating a Hawken but you still need to study the details and maybe get some blueprints. Not a good choice for a first rifle build. A Hawken owner in Alaska claims he has an original in flintlock ignition. I have never come across any documentation of a half stock Hawken Plains rifle with flintlock ignition.

 

[user 36911]

I'm a hunter not a collector. I don't require an exact copy. It would still just be a copy. I'm satisfied with the Pedersoli Hawken for my purpose.

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

I built one of these in the 80's. I do recall it being made by Uberti and being something like a .53 caliber. Loved that rifle. Shouldn't have sold it to my cousin.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Who is this Allen you refer to and what was the name of his company? Pedersoli takes liberties on its interpretation of the Hawken. The extra fancy hammer is unusual. The wood in front of the lock plate right of the snail cut out should flow right into the top of the lock plate. A distinguishing feature of real Plains Hawkens and wannabes is that when the barrel is pointed straight up, the heel always touches the ground and the toe does not. There is a slight swell to the forestock on half stocks. Lock panels can be tapered and slightly sloping rather than parallel to the octagon flats of a straight barrel. Compare photos and if fortunate enough to view and handle originals compare to Cabelas, Traditions, Lyman, Pedersoli, Thompson Center. CVA versions. The Cherry Corners, Ithaca, Navy Arms and Uberti has a heavier barrel due to a slightly smaller than .54 bore diameter. John Baird had some hand in getting a company to make a copy from possibly the Santa Fe Hawken owned by Kit Carson or a Bridger original in Montana. The Hawken Shop in St. Louis and then bought by a new owner in Washington marketed castings made from original Hawken parts. The original owner had a plenty good collection of originals and went out of the way to point out unique Hawken features. Other than a few custom makers most cheaper knock offs are not close to the lines and construction of Sam and Jake's product. The Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, Nebraksa and Jim Gordon's museum in Glorieta, New Mexico are two very good places to look at the real deal. Some in the Cody, Wyoming firearms museum. Short of seeing them in person, there are a lot of good pictures in gun books about Hawkens. As you get to handle more and more originals, the distinctions between them and the knock offs are pretty obvious. This applies mainly to the big bore classic full and half stocks. Smaller caliber sporting Hawkens did not always look like the double key half stocks and some had cast nosecaps. Details in the hooked breech (straight for earlier and slanted for later), scroll on the end of the trigger guard, designs of lock bolt inlays, solder joints and filling on underbarrel ribs, even design of rear sights can help you determine when in the history of the Hawken shop a rifle was made. Track of the Wolf offers o.k. parts and kits for recreating a Hawken but you still need to study the details and maybe get some blueprints. Not a good choice for a first rifle build. A Hawken owner in Alaska claims he has an original in flintlock ignition. I have never come across any documentation of a half stock Hawken Plains rifle with flintlock ignition.

That would be Leonard Allen, founder of Allen Firearms Mfg. Corp. (as marked on Andy's rifle) and Western Arms Corporation. I don't know which came first, or if they existed simultaneously. Mr. Allen worked with Uberti to produce a Samuel Hawken rifle replica, and the subject rifle of this thread is one of them. As I understand it, Mr. Allen is believed to have sent Uberti either an Ithaca or a Cherry Corners Hawken as a pattern in about 1977. Production is thought to have started in about 1979.

Meanwhile, John Baird worked with Ed Webber to reproduce a J&S Hawken halfstock that was in the Montana Historical Society collection. Leonard Allen was involved in getting Uberti to reproduce that one also, but production of that rifle never really took off. I think Allen's company eventually folded in about 1987, and Cimarron Firearms eventually acquired Western Arms

The Allen/Western Arms/Uberti Hawken was marketed as the Santa Fe Hawken. There was a Jedediah Smith Commemorative variant, which was essentially the same gun with different markings. As brother @Dale Lilly noted, the Log Cabin Shop carried the Santa Fe Hawken, but I don't know if theirs had different markings. These were all made by Uberti. At some later time, Pedersoli took over production, and this rifle's legacy continues in the form of Pedersoli's Rocky Mountain Hawkens.

I don't know for certain where Andy's rifle fits in that timeline, but I believe it is probably an early one. It is true, they left a lot of wood in the lock panels, both in front of and behind the lock, and the forend has been described as "slab sided." As Andy pointed out, this was typical of Hawken-type rifles designed and produced in the late seventies and eighties. You'll note the same oversized lock panels on Browning's Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle and on the Lyman/Investarm Great Plains Rifle, which were both designed and originally produced in that period. However, the Santa Fe Hawkens are nevertheless fine looking rifles and they have excellent reputations as shooters. As far as I know, the Santa Fe Hawkens were not specifically patterned after the Bridger or Carson rifles.

The picture of the lock with the elegantly sculpted hammer was from a current Lyman/Pedersoli Great Plains Signature rifle. I think @MtnMan posted it for comparison to the Allen Hawken.

So, the Allen Hawken which is the subject of this thread represents a late-1970's interpretation of a Hawken rifle. It isn't a perfect replica, but it was closer than anything else being mass produced in that time period. An important selling point was the price, which was originally under $300. Green River Rifle Works and some custom builders were making more accurate replicas, but they were not mass produced and they were priced considerably higher.

Andy's Allen Hawken represents one of the first links in a chain of production made Hawken replicas that extends to this day. I would say it is historically significant in its own right. It is a nice looking and very collectible rifle in splendid condition, and I'll bet it's a terrific shooter, too.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[andy52]

As soon as I get the rifle which is now in shipment I'll let you know how it shoots.
Allen had to change the name of his company from Western to Allen because Winchester sued him because they held the trademark name" Western".

 

[Grenadier1758]

Be sure to measure your bore. The early Allen/Western. Santa Fe Hawken rifles had a bore of 0.530" and needed a ball of 0.526" or 0.520".

 

[andy52]

Be sure to measure your bore. The early Allen/Western. Santa Fe Hawken rifles had a bore of 0.530" and needed a ball of 0.526" or 0.520".

All I had in .54 cal. were .535s that I use in my Lyman and Hatfield, I had to order some .520s from TOW to at least get me started when the rifle comes in