Altering a Pedersoli NW Trade musket

[loflyr55]

I would like to know your thoughts on modifying the side plate on a trade musket to better reflect something closer to what has been found on the originals. Would it affect value, Eric.?

 

[2 shots]

i believe these are surface mount . see if you can find a better looking one that the lock bolt holes will work with and just change it. this way you still have the original one to put back on if worried about value. many catalogs show the parts full size. you might be able to match it up. also there was more than one style of these plates

 

[Tacitus]

I modified the side plate on my Pedersoli. I doubt it effects the value but even if it does I think it looks better without that brass disk with the wave pattern.

 

[Timber Wolf]

I improved my Pedersoli Trade Gun by taking it off altogether and replacing it with two “finishing washers” from Home Depot. I think the deletion increased the guns value, at least to my eye.

 

[barracudadave67]

Question for you guys that have Ped trade rifles. Does the trade rifle lock have two oposite side lock screws holding it on.
I am thinking of getting one of these, but like to have two side lock screws. Altho its not a game changer.

Thanks
Dave

 

[FlinterNick]

I improved my Pedersoli Trade Gun by taking it off altogether and replacing it with two “finishing washers” from Home Depot. I think the deletion increased the guns value, at least to my eye.

Many often think all trade guns had a serpent side plate.

Trade guns were designed to be traded for low values, I’ve seen them with no side plates and one with no side plate and brass side bolts.

 

[Timber Wolf]

Question for you guys that have Ped trade rifles. Does the trade rifle lock have two oposite side lock screws holding it on.
I am thinking of getting one of these, but like to have two side lock screws. Altho its not a game changer.

Thanks
Dave

Sorry to be slow answering, but I wanted to wait until I removed my lock the first time to be sure. The lock has one machine screw and one wood screw holding it. Looking at it a clever fellow might be able to epoxy a threaded insert in the stock and replace that front wood screw with an appropriate machine screw.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Having only the one lock bolt can serve to eliminate any interference of the front lock bolt with the ramrod. For all practical purposes, one lock bolt is all that is needed.

 

[FlinterNick]

Sorry to be slow answering, but I wanted to wait until I removed my lock the first time to be sure. The lock has one machine screw and one wood screw holding it. Looking at it a clever fellow might be able to epoxy a threaded insert in the stock and replace that front wood screw with an appropriate machine screw.

This wont’ work on these pedersoli trade guns and frontier guns.

the reason why they use a wood screw is because the lock bolt will hit the ramrod. About 1/2 from the end of the rod channel.

The lock is too large for this gun, had they shortened the front end and bolted it beneath the frizzen spring, then it may have worked. (If they really wanted to use two bolts, but one is all that is needed).

The front wood screw really isn’t needed, I would simply just epoxy the wood screw hold and weld-up the front lock bolt. If the lock isn’t sturdy enough with one bolt and no wood screw you may just needed to use a larger metric lock bolt. As long as the pan is snug fit against the breech.

The other thing you could do is make bolt the front end with an appropriate lock bolt and then make the ramrod slightly longer, it will go past the muzzle by about 1/4 to 1/2 an inch.

But i think welding up the lock plate wood screw hole with epoxy and then TIG weld the plate is probably your best move.

I’ve seen some fellas put some practical magic into these guns, one guy i knew found a longer frizzen spring to cover the wood screw.

 

[hanshi]

I agree with Grenadier1758 about needing only one lock bolt. A flint lock **** simply strikes the lock itself causing no real torque in the lock assembly. Two lock bolts can make sense with a percussion lock since the hammer strikes either the barrel or a drum connected to the barrel. And a front lock bolt can be a real headache when it interferes with the ramrod.

 

[loflyr55]

I modified the side plate on my Pedersoli. I doubt it effects the value but even if it does I think it looks better without that brass disk with the wave pattern.View attachment 141384

I like the stock color, did you re- finish that?

 

[Tacitus]

I like the stock color, did you re- finish that?

It was a kit. So, yes I did the finish.

 

[MountainSmoke]

I'm a little confused, does the front wood screw actually hold the lock on in any way or is it just for the side plate?

 

[Grenadier1758]

It was believed that the two lock bolts were necessary to properly hold the lock plate to the stock. The side plate served as a washer for the lock bolts as well as a decorative embellishment. The serpent/dragon was symbolic of the fire breathing aspects of a trade gun.

As the guns architecture became more trim, the forward lock bolt interfered with the ramrod. The forward bolt had to be very thin or notched for the ramrod to clear. Not so bad for a thin steel ramrod. But steel ramrods were a military accessory and tapered ramrods were still quite fragile.

So, modern production methods started using the wood screw in place of the forward lock bolt with no loss of function while having the nimble architecture so beloved in the Pennsylvania flintlock rifles.

 

[FlinterNick]

I'm a little confused, does the front wood screw actually hold the lock on in any way or is it just for the side plate?

Grenadier’s explanation is the best, historically his explanation is on point.

Then there’s Pedersoli’s history, pedersoli began making this gun in the 1970’s. The first design of the lock was smaller and it used one lock bolt, metric around 6 x 1, and then 5 x .8, there was no wood screw. The stock was designed a little larger and I think the barrel might have been leaner giving it more room in the breech area for lock bolt, however there was still no lock bolt, no need for one.

After the 1980’s pedersoli did a redesign of their trade gun lock and made it slightly longer and added a wood screw, i believe this has to do more with their CNC machining then it does authenticity. A few of their guns are made with wood screws that are not necessary, the frontier rifles and I’m pretty sure their Mortimer rifle has a wood screw. Not sure why the wood screw is still relevant in their production, it serves almost no purpose, it strips out with romoval.

 

[MountainSmoke]

Ok, so the lock can be removed without even messing with the wood screw? That's what had me confused, wood screws usually don't fare well to regular removal, or the wood doesn't I should say. Thanks for the replies, I learned a lot right there.

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

A well-known gunsmith once showed a couple of us that the bolt which holds the lock in place should be able to be removed with only your thumb nail for a "screw driver" if it is properly installed. Personally, I like to feel the screw tighten with a real screw driver. But that's just me. Point is, a lot of tension is not necessary to hold the lock in place. The mortise does that. One bolt is quite enough, although I have seen originals with three.

 

[FlinterNick]

A well-known gunsmith once showed a couple of us that the bolt which holds the lock in place should be able to be removed with only your thumb nail for a "screw driver" if it is properly installed. Personally, I like to feel the screw tighten with a real screw driver. But that's just me. Point is, a lot of tension is not necessary to hold the lock in place. The mortise does that. One bolt is quite enough, although I have seen originals with three.

It depends on the lock size. Bigger locks have bigger mainsprings and the tension isn’t evenly distributed.

Older dog locks and Brown Bess style locks are just too large for a single bolt. Three was needed on the older dog locks (pre 1700) and British Sea Service Muskets because the internal parts were larger and unbridled locks needed to be sturdy.

 

[FlinterNick]

Ok, so the lock can be removed without even messing with the wood screw? That's what had me confused, wood screws usually don't fare well to regular removal, or the wood doesn't I should say. Thanks for the replies, I learned a lot right there.

Only if you omit the wood screw completely, the wood screw will need to be removed.

 

[Pioneer flinter]

I would like to know your thoughts on modifying the side plate on a trade musket to better reflect something closer to what has been found on the originals. Would it affect value, Eric.?