Any caliber too small?

[Kentucky45]

If I was to ask, I'd guess most traditional hunters shoot 45cal or 50cal rifles for deer sized game. Most muzzle loader hunters I know do. Some shoot larger cal rifles and a few shoot smaller. A couple of my friends shoot 36cal here in Texas and one shoots a 32cal muzzle loader. I've looked at a few rifles in the 36cal or smaller range that were used in the Civil war and that era by Southern boys, some with carved notches, and those guns also supplied food for their families. Each year the guys with 36 and 32cal rifles always seem to get their deer. They seem to shoot more. Kindof like I shoot my 22cal rifles more than my deer rifles. The smaller 36's and 32's are fun to shoot and my friends hunt with them allot more year around, because they hunt squirrels, hogs and coyotes out of season. But some people complain their little 36's and 32's are just too small for deer hunting. Here in Texas, you can shoot a deer with a 22 Hornet center fire cartridge, a 222, or a 22-250, all "very" small lead and no one complains. Everyone's wife or kid has those calibers. But shoot a 36 or 32cal muzzle loader and all the center fire hunters, and some muzzleloader shooters say that's too small. The smallest caliber muzzle loader you could shoot here before was 45cal, but Texas law changed and now we can shoot any size muzzle loader. Do any of you shoot 36cal or smaller and how do you feel about the smaller cal rifles for deer hunting. Thanks

 

[tg]

I used to use a .40 and kept shots hopefully around 40 yds or so as a max,I know only use smoothbores .58/.62 I personaly would not go smaller in bore size than the .40 but others do with good results, state regulations and,level of experience/confidence are thew factors which would determine each hunters choice,this will likley turn into a spitting match betwix the large bore advocates and the small bore gentlemen but you will garner so food for thought at any rate.

 

[rabjr]

I hate to see minimum laws like that because to many people don't understand that small calibers need to be used right in order to do the job. Range and shot placement is critical. Yes you can kill a deer with the smaller calibers, hell a .22 will kill a deer if shot right. But most people don't have the discipline to use these smaller calibers right. We have a .45 cal minimum, actually I need to check as it maybe .44 in sabots but either way I can live with that as I generally use much larger calibers anyway.

 

[RickD]

I`m going to hunt with a .44 this year

 

[roundball]

Do any of you shoot 36cal or smaller and how do you feel about the smaller cal rifles for deer hunting.

You've asked a question that can get you some responses that may be harsh...you need to remember they are not directed "at" you...they are just responses to the question:

My personal views are:

1) Any caliber can/probably has killed deer;

2) There are a very small percentage of excellent shots who have used little calibers and have put the tiny ball precisely where it had to go.

3) We never hear about all the ones they shot that they couldn't find and if you think they never lost any you're out of touch with reality;

4) These hunters either have to get extremely close or be superb at judging distance, always miss bones, etc, because there is zero margin for error;

5) Some hunters who advocate this are purely ego driven and care more for their own bragging rights than they do about wounding any deer;

6) Some hunters then try to emulate this and are not that precise, ending up wounding a lot of deer which go off to die a slow miserable death in a thicket somewhere.

IMO, all of us have a responsibility to respect the animal whose life we're taking...and we need to "work at ensuring" we use the best power matchup to cover all hunting conditions we might encounter during a days hunt. Things like poor light, unseen angles which bring large bones into play, uncertain distances, etc...and in that regard, my personal approach is as follows:

.32/.36/.40cals are small game calibers...squirrels, rabbits, turkey, coyotes, etc;

.45cal is on the fence...can be used for small game and on deer as long as some consideration for distance is still paid attention to;

.50/.54/.58cals are big game calibers...deer, bear, elk, moose, etc.

I have a .40cal that is an absolute tack driver, but would never think of leaving the house with it as an all purpose deer rifle for a day deer hunting.

 

[Rocky Johnson]

Bill That is an excelent reply.

 

[Supercracker]

Bill That is an excelent reply.

x2

Shot placement is everything!

 

[vern faulkner]

Maybe a good question one should ask himself/herself is not "is the caliber big enough, but is it really ethical to use said gun on the game being hunted considering all the variables involved". I believe that a true sportsman should not have a problem answering this. Just my :2
Vern

 

[BrownBear]

A whole lot depends on your willingness to exercise restraint and pass up shots.

If there are lots of deer and you can pass with fair certainty of getting a shot later, then smaller calibers can be made to work. But if deer are scarce or you don't get much time to hunt, the pressure will be on.

Your margin for error gets smaller with each drop in caliber and power, and you have to adjust your shooting accordingly. If you can't make the adjustment, you shouldn't be using small calibers.

 

[TrevorAaron]

just go out and try it. if you dont like the smaller caliber then now you will have an squirrel hunting gun. thats what i have learned. if some thing does not work try it on every varible till it does the job you need it to do. i would take my 32 crockett out deer hunting every day if i was allowed.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you spent a weekend at a deer check station looking at the condition of the deer brought in, I doubt you would be so anxious to use a .32 on deer. I have seen yearling deer that dressed out at 35 lbs. brought in shot 13 times with 12 gauge rifled slugs, and were still running when the last shot hit them, according to the witnesses. In the case I am recalling, the yearling was running down a ravine with its mother, on the far side, where the shooters did NOT Even see the yearling. They were all shooting at the doe, and shooting under her. They hit the yearling everywhere but in the heart/lung area until the last shot.

I happen to know someone who killed lots of deer with a .32 rifle back in his youth, during the Depression, for his extended family, and even he doesn't use that caliber now.

 

[shootemup]

I almost hate to wade into this because we’ve had this discussion before, here and elsewhere, and about the only thing we settled is that we all have our own opinions and we can’t be swayed.

Someone made the comment that the biggest problem with small calibers is that it takes some discipline to utilize them correctly. That is my opinion to a tee.

We, as traditional or primitive weapons hunters, accept more challenge than the guy who sets up in a heated treehouse with a thermos of coffee and a 300 magnum. But if we aren’t willing to (1) LEARN our chosen weapon’s limitations, and (2) operate WITHIN those limitations, then we have no business shooting at an animal with either.

If you can shoot the gun well, and you are willing to stay within the inherent limitations of the weapon you are using, you can use a smaller caliber. If you don’t know where the gun shoots and are not willing to pass up questionable shots, then you have no business hunting deer with a muzzleloader or a scoped 30-06.

I can shoot far better groups with my .40 than with my .62 smoothbore at fifty yards, but I’ve never had anyone tell me it would be unethical to use my .62 smoothbore for deer.

I don't have as much experience using a .40 on deer as I do the larger calibers, but I do have some, and I know from first-hand experience that a .40 makes a darn fine deer rifle when used within its limitations. For me, that means fifty yards or so, others’ mileage may vary. I have never wounded and lost a deer with it.

I like the .40 so well that I recently ordered a new one from TVM, and I will be using that for everything from squirrels to whitetails.

In the end, I guess what’s important is the level of challenge one is willing to accept, and the level of discipline they are willing to exert in order to stay within the limitations of their chosen weapon. I personally enjoy the added challenge of the .40, so will continue to use it.

:hatsoff:
Spot

 

[Kentucky45]

The reason I asked the question is not that I might buy or use a 36cal or smaller for deer. I like a larger caliber for larger game. I think a 32cal is great for coyotes, squirrel and pigs. My question is because allot of people don't have the same opinions regarding caliber size when discussing muzzleloading rifles as they do for centerfire rifles. I know bp hunters that are against small caliber muzzleloaders for deer, yet their families and even they themselves hunt with small cal centerfire rifles. "Most" of you who have commented, agree that a larger caliber should be used for larger game. Shot placement, knowing what your weapon and caliber is capable of, knowing your own capabilities are all important factors. But now that you have answered this question, how many of you, "honestly", use or have immediate family members that use the smaller caliber centerfire rifles for deer hunting? And if that's the case, then why do we set two different standards for the two type firearms?

 

[rabjr]

What are you calling small? Smallest caliber I ever saw in camp was a .243 and after gutting many deer shot by one, many moons ago, I wouldn't hesitate to use one. But I'd much rather use my trusty 7x57.

 

[roundball]

Not sure you meant to imply there was dishonesty on the part of us who feel small game calibers are a poor overall choice for general deer hunting...I practice what I preach.

I and my grown Son, my Brother, Brother in law, and various nephews all use .30-30, .30-06, .35Rem centerfire calibers for deer hunting.

In addition, you're trying to compare apples to oranges.
In a discussion about muzzleloaders its generally understood by all that generally speaking we're dealing with 100 yard guns give or take, with limited velocity and delivered energy, much of which actually comes from the size of frontal area.

Whereas the comparatively super high velocity of a smaller .264 Win Mag, .270, .280, .30-06 bullet delivers huge energy transfers at ranges often measured in the hundreds of yards...can't really go there as any sort of yardstick for PRBs out of a muzzleloader.

 

[Little Wattsy]

Ethics is defind in terms of NOT what you CAN do but what you SHOULD do.....

I am a fan of "to each their own" but for ME I feel a deep sence of responsibility to kill as cleanly and humanly as possible under ALL possible hunting situiations that I may pull the trigger under.

I used to bow hunt and learned to pass on alot of shots due to the self limitations of my equipment... So to may those with the .36's and .32's, I would hope.

I can see the "fun" in varment hunting and plinking with the smaller calibers but I have seen far to meny mishaps in the field when the deer moved, the sun glared, the grass blocked, the cold stiffened muscled, the rain slicked the ground, etc, etc, etc......

I believe that a .45 is bare minimum and I would NOT use THAT... A .50 is "OK" and a .54 is my choice as I am confident that out to 100 yards (MY self-imposed limit on yardage with open sights) I can penitrate and cleanly kill ANY deer at ANY angle that I can hit vitals on...

I have seen deer kilt with a .22 LR.... I would NEVER condone hunting with one.

:hatsoff:

Now you asked about the differance in opinion on centerfires VS ML-ers... They kill differantly. I dont personally like .22 cal centerfire guns for deer either but I DO shoot a .270 and a 7MM Mag those slender 130 to 165 grain slugs zipping through a deer in excess of 2500 feet per second create a vacum that will turn a 10" diamiter area into jelly... Heart, lungs, liver, etc. A ML bullet, be it ball or connical, hitting a deer at 1000 fps can NOT do that. A ML kills more like blunt force trauma. Imagine having a broom handle driven through your vitals with a sledge hammer; Welcome to the .54, .58, .62 cal ball. NOW imagine shooting a deer with an arrown that ONLY has a target tip on it (NO Broadhead) ~ enter the.36 cal. That plain arrow shaft will kill the deer IF placed properly but will easily deflect on a shoulder bone or kill far to slowly even through a lung. And THAT is why there is a HUGE differance between a .25 cal centerfire and a .36 cal muzzlel loader.

:thumbsup: :v

 

[shootemup]

I don't use small centerfire calibers for deer hunting. But then, I don't think any informed shooter would consider a .30 centerfire cartridge a small caliber.

Lots of difference between a 30-06 and a .32 blackpowder gun.

This whole discussion just changed.

 

[Kentucky45]

Not sure you meant to imply there was dishonesty on the part of us who feel small game calibers are a poor overall choice for general deer hunting...I practice what I preach.

In addition, you're trying to compare apples to oranges.

Roundball I didn't imply that anyone here is dishonest. I simply asked a question, you read it your way, someone else read it differently. I've sat and listened to hunters have this same discussion around camps and domino tables for years. I agree with your first response. And as per your second response, it's true, the comparison of a 36 or 32cal roundball compared to the "ONLY" calibers that I mentioned 22 Hornet, 222, and 22-250, is "apples to oranges". In agreeing with Wattsy, they do shoot differently. At no time did I ever mention 22LR, 270, 280, 243, 30-06 calibers, but they worked their way into the topic. The always do. The slower roundball does have a blunt force impact. So the question of penetration, impact depth, and hole size are all factors. The center fire cartridges I mentioned are so fast that unless they hit a vital or bone, they zip thru a deer with no immediate damage and many times leave a wounded animal that may heal or might suffer for days or weeks. Unless they hit bone, the hole is small in and out. I call coyotes year around and have used all these cartridges. I've shot thru coyotes. Many of you agree, myself included, that larger center fire cartridges, and larger balls, should be used for deer. Yet I've found that many of those same hunters who are against the smaller muzzle loaders, they themselves use or have purchased for family members, these small center fire rifles. I have also seen that many of those same hunters that are so against small cal balls will sidestep the issue of themselves useing small cal centerfires that can wound just as many animals as the small 36 and 32 balls can. What's ethical for one isn't always the ethical standard for another.

 

[tg]

I think it would be safe to say that when choosing small bores for Deer a lot of thought need go into the choice, I did not feel under gunned with a .400 shooting a .400 ball but my shot choices were much different than with a .50 and I would not suggest the smaller bores for brginner hunters,many more Deer must walk by before you pull the trigger with the small bore, the .40 is the smallest I would be comfortable with, others have done well now and in years past with smaller bores if proficient and experienced, it is a personal choice with no ones opinion trumping anothers.

 

[arctichomesteader]

Geography figures into this in my opinion. A Texas deer is generally rather small compared to, say, a big Vermont deer. I'd be willing to use something like a .36 on those tiny deer down there but I'd want something bigger here, .40 or bigger.

Shot placement is always important when hunting. A .22 can kill a deer instantly in one shot, it's the preferred gun of poachers in this state, but with that and with a small caliber muzzleloader, you better be a good shot and not take the shot when you feel you can't make it a good kill.