Anybody practice with their 'hawks?

[Johnny Tremain]

BTW Onterio Knives was back ordered for months on their combat katanas. Seems a bunch of them were taken to Afgany and Iraq to do the chop chop on terrorists. Guess all their owners got section Eights too, musta kept the lawyers busy.

Oh yeah, Guys carried tomahawks also. Im sure they didnt open cans or throw them.

Wow, never knew people tried to carry anything that large into combat. The tomahawk has been present in every American war since, well, since before we were the United States (F & I War). Note: I didn't say "issued".

Not that big 16 and 20 inches. Basicly a steel blade with a cord handle, all black.

 

[fatboy]

I practice throwing thats about it havnt it for a whike though.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

If one of my men showed up with a sword on his LBE I'd have him busted on section 8.

http://www.americantomahawk.com/

Call the lawyers

If you do a search on E-Bay or general web search for "Vietnam tomahawk" You will find ISSUED and repopped ones.

 

Mr T,

If you wish for the lawyers to intrude we have several here on the forum, but perhaps they are not versed on the CMJ.

As an officer and company commander in a combat unit I was constantly presented with the problem of insuring to my superiors that everything would look "normal" to the media.
I am sure you remember the potsmoking, ear stringing, ejection from the helicopter interrigation reports of the old era.

Sorry, but I worked with Ranger, Special Forces and SEAL units for several years and never remember seeing a single hawk or sword.

We heard about them from time to time, and wondered about the reasoning involved.

I presently have two sons in the Marine Corps and find that the official regulations are very specific on the privately owned weapons allowed in the units. They are issued a K-bar but were required to send the two hand forged combat knives back to the states at risk of article 15. They can carry no privately owned edged weapon that is large enough to extend across their palm. Any weapon larger than that can bring instant reprimend.

Someone may be doing it, but it is against the protections the military has established for themselves.

Do you really want to be known as the nut that chopped up the enemy with an axe? And how about the sword? Last check it was the insurgents that were beheading folks!

As soon as the media broke this story I know eaxctly what would happen. The CO of the unit would be called into some General's office and relieved of his command for allowing an international incident to occur. That is exactly why they passed these regulations.

"As soon as the incident became known the top brass took action. The soldiers were arrested, the commanding officer was relieved and the internal investigation continues" Heard that line before?

As a unit leader I can instantly justify self defense with almost any normal item at hand, (entrenching tools, hammers, rocks, tree limbs or crowbars) but I do not intend to explain hawks and swords!

If the weapons you describe are being used by American troops it is in violation of long standing regualtions. It is in violation of normal leadership standards. It also violates all common sense and is inviting some left wing journalist to go for his Pullitzer Prize.

I can not speak for every commander, but it ain't going to happen on my watch!

Chop up telephone poles in the back yard all you want too, but if you show up for a mission I lead, carrying a hawk or sword, the speed of the downhill flow is going to overwhelm you!

:results:

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Mr T,

If you wish for the lawyers to intrude we have several here on the forum, but perhaps they are not versed on the CMJ.

Did you see the pic? looks like our boys OCONUS with hawks to me. Like I said a lot has happened in the 14 years Ive been gone. Maybe My eyes are desieving me.

As an officer and company commander in a combat unit I was constantly presented with the problem of insuring to my superiors that everything would look "normal" to the media.
I am sure you remember the potsmoking, ear stringing, ejection from the helicopter interrigation reports of the old era.

Ah the bad ole daze. When stuff got done. BTW I resembled that remark.

Sorry, but I worked with Ranger, Special Forces and SEAL units for several years and never remember seeing a single hawk or sword.

So have I, and when the 75th went to Grenada, my Buckmaster went with one Ranger. When I trained in Bad Tolse (SF Training Camp Europe)I had my Gerber mark II, and there were a lot of others that did also.

I presently have two sons in the Marine Corps and find that the official regulations are very specific on the privately owned weapons allowed in the units. They are issued a K-bar but were required to send the two hand forged combat knives back to the states at risk of article 15. They can carry no privately owned edged weapon that is large enough to extend across their palm. Any weapon larger than that can bring instant reprimend.

Cant say what them Jarheads are up to. Dont give a rats fuzzy behind what goes on with them.

Do you really want to be known as the nut that chopped up the enemy with an axe? And how about the sword?

HELL yes. They would not be helpless Civies with thier hands and feet bound. Free express to Alluh right here.

Last check it was the insurgents that were beheading folks!

To bad the pantie waste officers of today cant use S&D units. Do on to others... or like the Red Queen said " Off with THIER heads"

After WWII we just went around and took the insurgents out.

As soon as the media broke this story I know eaxctly what would happen. The CO of the unit would be called into some General's office and relieved of his command for allowing an international incident to occur. That is exactly why they passed these regulations.

What ever happened to keep your men alive. When I Officer has to think first what the press will say over the welfare of his troop. He dont need to command.

If the weapons you describe are being used by American troops it is in violation of long standing regualtions. It is in violation of normal leadership standards.

Like I said, If the new action service has chnaged that much, then us dinosaurs best enjoy our retirement.

It also violates all common sense and is inviting some left wing journalist to go for his Pullitzer Prize.

(&*%^$^*) Inhibiting servicemen from EVERY chance to stay alive and inflict the maximium damange to those punks is CRIMINAL

Shoot the blankity journalists too. I give no quarter to them commie (%^#@&^**)

I can not speak for every commander, but it ain't going to happen on my watch!

Then I feel sorry for your men.

Chop up telephone poles in the back yard all you want too, but if you show up for a mission I lead, carrying a hawk or sword, the speed of the downhill flow is going to overwhelm you!

If im ever pressed back into service. Id have to decline.

Ill wait for them to come down my street and deal with them my way.

If your what we have to offer. We are worse off than I figured.

It burned me what you said up top. Well I have proven you INCORRECT. Heck I didnt even use the last time a US Marine used a sword in combat to kill 4 Victor Charlie.

WE DONE

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Oh yeah, speaking of hawk. You all see that DGW sell the parts to make Mel Gibsons hawk.

Ive been looking for books or vids for hawk combat. Any one have any good leads. Im still of the school that I cant throw away a perfectly good blade. Learning a new skill and incorporating into ones practice time, sure sounds like fun to me. How about you?

 

[musketman]

Anybody practice with their 'hawks? The kind I'm talking about is the American Heritage fighting style of using the tomahawk in conjunction with the long knife.

Doesn't this style of fighting derive from the American Indians using flint knives and tomahawks?

 

[bezoar]

Yeah johnny, the military went to hell. These days your not even supposed to return fire. And i read a few years ago after the U.S.S. Cole fiasco that the gunners on ships cant even return fire, is i remember right they cant even have ammo at the gun until general quarters is called.

If thats not bad enough, the government decided to switch to a nylon based bullet for all small arms, supposedly a frangible type as well.

 

[musketman]

Yeah johnny, the military went to hell. These days your not even supposed to return fire. And i read a few years ago after the U.S.S. Cole fiasco that the gunners on ships cant even return fire, is i remember right they cant even have ammo at the gun until general quarters is called.

If thats not bad enough, the government decided to switch to a nylon based bullet for all small arms, supposedly a frangible type as well.

Was this topic pertaining to modern military hand to hand combat or that of the muzzleloading era?

Let us look back to the opening post...

Anybody practice with their 'hawks? The kind I'm talking about is the American Heritage fighting style of using the tomahawk in conjunction with the long knife.

Who knows, I may be way off track asking this here. Is there any kind of interest in learning how these weapons were used in the battles that forged our young nation?

 

[FSCGunslinger]

Anybody practice with their 'hawks? The kind I'm talking about is the American Heritage fighting style of using the tomahawk in conjunction with the long knife.

Doesn't this style of fighting derive from the American Indians using flint knives and tomahawks?

Yep. Flint knives and ball-headed war clubs origionally. Once iron 'hawk heads and knives were available, it just got more effective.

 

[FSCGunslinger]

Was this topic pertaining to modern military hand to hand combat or that of the muzzleloading era?

Let us look back to the opening post...

Thanks. Not that I don't have opinions on the other topics that have been brought up, but I'm really just more curious as to anyone who actually trains with the hawk/knife from history.

 

[jim gray]

The problem with practicing with edged weapons is that in addition to a great deal of skill they also require pretty good physical condition. Even a few seconds of an all out, determined attack is exhausting if you are not in peak shape.

Serious practice would require that you wear the same gear you would be wearing if you suddenly had to react to an opponent's attacking you by surprise. That cumbersome stuff that many of us carry around would not have been practical for the frontier scouts and mountain men of the black powder era.

 

[Stumpkiller]

That cumbersome stuff that many of us carry around would not have been practical for the frontier scouts and mountain men of the black powder era.

There's truth in those words. That's why I wear the same gear while target shooting that I do while still-hunting or day-hiking. You get to know where things are, where they stay, what's more bother than worth, and what the minimal kit can be distilled down to.

I'm very careful about the dangles, jangles and tangles that are added to my gear. Currently, the only item I have loose is a powder measure that hangs from my horn. And even that I tuck behind the pouch when moving. I carry two ball blocks, and they are both in sheaths so they do not swing loosely.

Haversack always goes on last; so it can be shed first. Pouch and horn are small and placed so I can snug them against my ribs with my elbow. Rifleman's knife (10" blade "Ticonderoga" style) is always slightly forward on my left hip and a smaller 5" scalping/gutting knife is on my right (where it also helps hold my shooting bag), both on a wide leather belt which I buckle in the rear (so the buckle won't scratch my gun).

Carrying a hawk is always a problem, so I generally do not carry one for hunting or target shooting. Usually laced to the back of the haversack in a sheath, so it's not "handy" in any case. At one time I just stuck my squaw-hawk in my belt behind hy hunting pouch, but once I noticed the damage it was causing my pouch I added a head-covering sheath.

I'd be interested in how others carry theirs.