Anyone experience this with Graff's or Schuetzen powder ??

[Hunter John]

A few years back I bought a couple of pounds of Schuetzen powder and was impressed with its performance. It seemed to produce the same accuracy I was getting with Goex in a couple of my rifles and was just a tad cleaner in my opinion. Good stuff I thought.

So when Graf and Sons had a special on their Graf black powder, I decided to order a case of FF. After using a couple of pounds, I noticed that cleaning between shots and subsequent loading became much harder than usual. I attributed my difficulties to using Remington caps, shooting on a humid day, underlubing patches, etc...but never the Graf powder.

Will yesterday at the range I decided to do some serious testing using tried and true techniques. I brought 2 guns and would use the same Hornady .490 balls, CCI regular caps, 0.015 industrial cloth patches, 91% alcohol cleaning solution, 60 grains of FF powder, and loading sequence with each...varying only using FF Grafs with 1 rifle and FF Goex with the other. And yes, I swabbed between every shot using 1 damp alcohol patch followed by 2 dry patches.

Well here's what I found. After only 10 shots, the Graf rifle became almost unshootable; I had great difficulty swabbing with the damp alcohol patch and even more trouble following with the dry patch afterwards. Dutch's dry patch method required me almost to pound the ball down the bore. I have a T handle on a nice 3/8" aluminum rod with a bore guide and I had to put almost all my weight on the rod to get the ball to go down the bore. Get this, I noticed that the dirty Graf patches did not have the traditional dark black tar (like with Goex)like substance but instead had a very dry dark yellow (almost brownish) substance on them.

After 12 shots, the Graf rifle began to misfire requiring me with each shot to put a few grains of FFFF Goex under the nipple in order to get the rifle to off. When I removed the nipple, I noticed that there was almost a "flat plate" of hard substance right under the nipple. I finally gave up on that rifle when I popped a few hot German caps on an unloaded rifle while pointing the muzzle close to dry leaves and the leaves didn't move a bit. Barrel definitely obstructed. Why?

I noticed that the end of the bore of the Graf rifle seemed to have a hard greyish substance deep in the corner of the rifle grooves. Once these games began, accuracy went south in a hurry; I was spraying rounds everywhere even at 25 yards. Absolutely terrible :cursing:

In brief, I performed the exact same steps in my other rifle using FF Goex and the gun performed wonderfully. Loading was almost as easy after the 20th shot as it was after the 1st. Several 25 yard groups were almost 1 hole as well (shooting off bench). Swabbing was a breeze and at no time did I ever struggle to pull a cleaning patch from the bore.

Soooo, any theories out there as to why the Graf powder is giving me fits? I still have 21 lbs left and before I tell my wife :yakyak: that I just wasted over $300, I'm willing to listen to any suggestions. :idunno:

The only thing that came to me while thinking about this (at 2am this morning while lying in bed) was that the Graf powder residue was somehow reacting to the alcohol patch and creating a hard residue. ??? Use different swabbing solution?

Anyone ?

 

[larry wv]

The fair thing to do would be to shoot the same powder and wipe the same way on about the same type of day with the other rifle. After that start trying to sort it out. It sucks but at least it would be shooting. :grin:

Larry

 

[ZUG]

Not all powder burns the same - as you found out :hmm: . You will have to change some of your "standard" routine with (to name a few) lube, powder amount, patch thickness, barrel swabbing (I'd use spit or water not the 91% alcohol) :wink: . Don't expect to get the same results with two or more different firearms - just saying :v .

 

[necchi]

Use different swabbing solution?

That would be my take.
Spit patch or damp with "water" If your following Dutch, it's
"one damp patch down and back",, never read anything about alcohol or following with a dry patch :idunno:
Maybe it's time for a different or new jag. All jags are not created equal and they do wear out.
It could be your swabbing patch. For the sake of consistency, I use store bought 22cal cleaning patches for the swab patch, just once and toss it,, it's a shooting expense,, so what?
You've got 21 pounds to go,, it's time to switch up the technique and find something that does work.
There's a word for doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

 

[Hunter John]

Both rifles were shot the same day, same range, same everything....'cept for the powder.

 

[Donny]

If nothing works, I wonder if you could sell it to a cannoneer, they burn a lot,
and are they that particular?
At a small loss?

 

[Hunter John]

Necchi - Hmmm, I think you might be on to something. I purchased Dutch's System pack and thought I read it closely, but I guess I'll have to dig it out and re-read. Thanks for pointing that out. :v

I thought that the "damp patch" thing just referred to just that: only using a damp patch and NOT a patch that's dripping wet. I guess the question is, damp with what?

I never realized that Dutch was promoting swabbing with water or a water based solution. I always used 91% alcohol as the swabbing solution as I thought that it prevented the problem of moisture getting into the cap ignition channel (not technical terms I know) and causing a misfire. No?

Yeah, gotta change something. I'm all ears here folks.

Seems strange that alcohol swabbing works with Goex but not Grafs. Ok.

Anyone ever use Simple Green to swab...or just a water spray ?

 

[necchi]

There's no need to introduce a bunch of cleaning chemicals into a swab.
Take a piece of cloth you use for patch, pop it in your mouth, saturate it with spit, press it against the roof of your mouth with your tongue.
You now have a damp patch. It ain't dripping, it ain't sloppy, there's no extra "wetness" that will come off the patch to foul the fire channel.
Push it down in one stroke, pull it back with one stroke.
I did really mean that you may need a different or new cleaning jag,, they do wear out.

 

[Hunter John]

Necchi - Thanks again for the suggestions. :bow:

Will try the spit cleaning patch and take a caliper to the jag I've been using for 2 years and compare it to a few new ones I have in storage.

Goex residue must be more "foregiving" to the alcohol swab than Grafs I guess. Sheez, been shooting muzzleloaders for 20 years and still learning.

Will re-read Dutch's System tonight.

More experimenting = more range time. :wink:

 

[larry wv]

Both rifles were shot the same day, same range, same everything....'cept for the powder.

Hunter John I am saying try the Graffs powder in the rifle that worked good with Goex.

Larry

 

[rodwha]

If you get rid of the case of Grafs powder you may be interested in trying Goex Olde Eynsford powder. From what I've read it fouls less than standard Goex.

Olde E was designed to compete with Swiss powder.

 

[Walks with fire]

I never used the Graf powder but running a brush to clean the grooves every 10 shots or so in addition to swabbing of every shot would probably make it usable at the range. I also only shoot flint rifles though. Using a capper would probably require cleaning the flash channel every so often as well.

I use Goex; mostly 2f. I have used Swiss but like Goex best. My preferred lube is Hoppe's #9 BP patch and solvent.

Graf's probably needs a little more cleaning and a brush would probably help.

 

[smoothshooter]

It occurs to me when I see or hear some variation of the phrase, " Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results " that this is not always true.

If I stand at the free throw line on a basketball court and start trying to make baskets with my back turned toward the net, I am probably not going to make a basket any time soon.
But if I perservere, and keep shooting, I will be eventually be successful.

Is it the best way to achieve my goal - of course not.
But it does disprove the saying mentioned above.

 

[Rifleman1776]

What you proved is the two powders are different. I'll ditto others who say the alcohol is not necessary and add, probably not useful at all.
I use pure cotton baby blanket flannel for swabbing patches which I dampen in my mouth. (no alcohol in there until after the shooting is over for the day :wink: )
But, I'll send you some kudos for your work and testing. :applause: Even if the conclusions were not what you hoped it was a learning experience. And, you did spend the day shooting. :grin:

 

[Micah Clark]

Funny . . . I've been shooting Graf & Sons 3F after I went through a pound of Goex 3F . . . it seemed like the Graff was a little cleaner, but maybe it seemed that way because I thought it would be that way (power of suggestion). I've gone through about half a pound, minus what is in my powder horn.

It seemed to shoot the same in my Lyman GPR, as Goex, but I think that's a pretty forgiving rifle.

On the can it says "Imported by Schuetzen Powder LLC." I have a can of regular Schuetzen 3f which I have not opened but it looks exactly like the Graff can w a different label.

You might want to hang on to that case until after the election . . . . things might get weird, and it may become scarce, or you may be able to sell it for more than you paid if the Hildabeast wins and gets her supreme court pick.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I have never shot Graff but I have shot five lbs of Schuetzen that I won at a shoot about ten years ago and had no problems with it. Maybe they are making it different now? :idunno:

 

[necchi]

there's another word for it.

 

[Hunter John]

Mac - "...if the Hildabeast wins and gets her supreme court pick.."

Yeah, if that turns out to be the case, I'm gonna have bigger problems than Grafs powder causing hard fouling when using a damp alcohol swab.

Point noted.

 

[Hunter John]

Mac - Right, the Grafs can says "Imported by Schuetzen Powder LLC," that's exactly why I bought it...thinking I was paying $14 lb total for the Grafs when the Schuetzen was running around $18. Thought I would save around $100 for the Graf case compared to the Schuetzen.

Hey, when you were shooting your Grafs FFF, were you swabbing between shots? If so, what were you using?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Micah Clark]

I swabbed with a spit patch mostly though sometimes I used the TC bore cleaner in the white bottle w yellow label.

In my 50 GPR it wasn't a problem either way but my Traditions Crockett fouled pretty fast w everything except substitute powder but that stuffs no fun to shoot ... Not enough smoke !

With both rifles my patch lube was - is - Hoppes Black Powder Solvent which I soak my patches in. I like it ... Though I bought some pre lube patches from Flintlocks Ink last year w their own patch lube that's a white paste of some kind and it works very well, seems to foul less when shooting.

I'm no expert .. Only been shooting BP about 5 years.