anyone got anything good to say bout ERA? pics?

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pennsyltucky

40 Cal.
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i have been drooling over the cumberland smoothbore for a while now and id really like to hear some good things about larry's work. if anyone has one id really like to see some pics, and if u are anywhere me id love to see it in person. especially if its in .75!!!! :D
 
yes he does make an excellent product, I have personally been to his shop and his home he is a good a decent man of great character, I have owned a few of his guns one a kit rifle which after built was never shot by me but I made a mistacke and let a buddie shoot it fist well he bought it right then and there, the I tried one in the white and it was awsome with no complaints , that one I have sold too another friend found out that I got a new rifle and he wanted it too, oh well then another came and went at a shoot it was liked by another then last year I sold a kit gun on track of the wolf from larry's kit , got to say it is good quality don't be discouraged by what others have said, if you have concerns let larry know right up front and he'll take care of you. bb75
 
I have a Cumberland Fowler .75 in kit form that I am slowly putting together. My only complaint is that I felt that there should have been at least one more machinge screw supplied with it. Did not like to see a wood screw supplied to hold the tang. Much prefer that a machine screw connect it to the trigger plate. I bought one from TOW and also another screw in order to have a second machine screw secure the lock. Other than these little things I like the kit. All the rest of the mistakes were and continue to be my learning opportunities. Larry was very good to deal with and the kit came in 6 weeks or so. GC
 
Yes,I know Larry Williams and have seen some of his guns.Until last week I hadn't seen any criticism of his guns. In fact I don't recall seeing such similar criticism of any builder as to the quality of his work.What I have seen of his work has been good. There are two posts on another thread on this forum by Rich Pierce and TG and I was about to post in to say that I agreed with them when I saw this thread.One of the constant complaints I hear from reenactors is that they cannot afford "custom" guns which for some time have been the only correct guns available.Now we have Larry and ERA offering a viable alternative in his inexpensive guns within the range of affordability for these same reenactors.I have three custom guns suitable for F&I reenacting and the cheapest one I have cost me $1100.00 finished several years ago as a used gun bought from a friend at his cost.The simple truth is that "you get what you pay for" and the gun in question was sold "in the white" as being one notch above a kit for $665.00 including shipping. It was not what I would consider a "custom gun".Considering that the parts would cost about $500.00,that's $165.00 for labor and shipping.With shipping at about $50.00,that's $115.00 for labor.His finished guns run around $850.00-900.00 +/- I am sorry that the customer was so disappointed with his gun but he himself said there was nothing he couldn't fix.

I have seen the flood of outraged opinions and condemnations from people who haven't seen the gun nor have they dealt with Larry.I have seen Trial by fire, Trial by ordeal,and Trial by jury but here we are seeing Trial by message board.The people on this board who are so outraged based on hearsay and second hand opinions would do well to remember that they aren't merely expressing opinions in the confines of a small group but rather are passing on serious condemnation for all the world to[url] see.In[/url] fact they are voicing opinions which can and probably will affect a man's[url] livlihood.In[/url] this country,one of our most cherished and necessary concepts is that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Here I see just the opposite taking place.Freedom of speech does not give one the right to shout fire in a crowded theater nor does it give one the right to make unsubstantiated criticism of products and services offered by a seller or provider especially when those criticisms can have the affect of damaging that person's economic well being.
I fully expect to be pilloried and roundly condemned for these statements but I stand by my opinions so OK have at it and just so you will know I am using my real name.
Tom Patton
 
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Tom,

Well said, and I agree completely. Its unfortunate, that our society has been been brainwashed to dwell on the negative.

Gregg
 
Okwaho I agree very well said, if you read over my post's I think you will agree with the point's i was trying to make he should have never touched and talked to him first if he was that upset with it and never did get a direct ansewer if he talked to him, seems funny
 
i would really appreciate a couple pictures of that kit if u could. ive never done a gun, but i keep leanin towards the kit just so i know it is the way i want it.

i will be gettin mine from larry no matter what bad things are said, so lets not continue the bash session. :peace:

i am just lookin for more arm twisting from some of the good folks here on the forums. and anything good that can be posted to try and counteract the bad on the other thread certainly wont hurt keep larry in business. i hope he stays in business for many years so i have time to talk the wife into gettin a few more made....hehe :front:
 
As Mr. Patton put it so well, "You get what you pay for". I personally am not going to put a gun together for $115, nor would I want one that the guy was willing to put together for that kind of money. :shake: I can't imagine the guy is eating very well at that kind of wage. Heck, you pay a plummer more to fix your toilet when it breaks down....Who would you want to pay better, the guy that fixes your toilet or the guy that makes an explosive device you put next to your head and touch off for kicks? :youcrazy:
 
I have a 54 cal Kentucky barn gun by Larry. Everyone who sees it loves it!! I have a colonial rifle on order with him now...JIM :front: :hatsoff:
 
Mike Brooks: I don't know about your neck of the woods but I think plummers get paid way too much for most of their jobs and too little for some. Any gun builder should get a fair price for the job he does and most do good jobs. Some get to much for what they do but they don't last long enought in the business to even be talked about. Let's not bad mouth a man until you can see or handle his product so you can make a fair comparison.
Fox :thumbsup:
 
Replying to Okwaho: I never did any pillory-ing before. Is it hazardous or painful? Is it like tar and feathering or what? And to be "roundly pilloried"- is that worse than regular pillory-ing? :haha:
Hope to see ya at CLA.
 
Neither does Larry. I read Okwaho's post and enjoyed a good chuckle. It's nice to know "Fuzzy Math" is still alive and well. :crackup:
Parts for this gun; barrel, stock, lock, trigger guard, butt plate, hardware: $350.00 at best from small Mom and Pop parts dealers. Shipping, $20.00 is what ERA charges and according to the UPS Ground charts he ain't going broke. As I have said before, I was impressed with ERAs work on guns I had seen from them, JUST NOT THIS ONE.
 
Lock $100, stock $150 minimum, barrel $150 minimum, Buttplate and trigger guard $40 for the pair , mIsc pipes and screws probably another $25.
That's $455 and probably a conservative guess on the parts. That leaves a $200 profit. Not much money for putting a gun together in the white. I know I wouldn't do that work for that kind of money. :shake:
 
Lock w/ screws $113.00 (L&R) shipped, and they threw in a trade gun trigger. Barrel w/ Underlugs & breeched $130.00 shipped, shop made from hydraulic tube. Stock Plain Maple $85.00 shipped. Butt Plate & Trigger Guard sand cast unfinished $22.00 shipped. Thimbles, $1.59 for 1 ft. of brass tube at Home Depot. Wood screws $.99. Barrel pins, finishing nails out of my garage (at least they're steel). Call some of these small Mom & Pop shops that advertise in Muzzleloader, Muzzleblast, Buckskinner, Smoke and Fire, ect. You would be surprized at the prices you can get if they have the stuff in stock, took me about an hour and a half today. Now I have another project that I don't have time for.
 
Lock $100, stock $150 minimum, barrel $150 minimum, Buttplate and trigger guard $40 for the pair , mIsc pipes and screws probably another $25.
That's $455 and probably a conservative guess on the parts. That leaves a $200 profit. Not much money for putting a gun together in the white. I know I wouldn't do that work for that kind of money. :shake:

the lock is a run of the mill L&R that he gets at a volume discount... "We like L&R locks very well, their historically accurate, and availability, reliability, and service have been outstanding. We buy a lot of them and in turn we pass this savings on to our customers.".....est. $75

he buys only stock blanks and they are straight grain unless u wanna pay extra for fancy (covering any cost above the normal stock, and probably he makes a few bucks on ya there too).... "We don't shape our stocks on duplicator machinery, were proud to say it's all done by hand tools. "A" grade maple is our standard grade of wood, very similar to the wood used on a plain original Long rifle." .... est. $50

he makes his own barrels outta hyd tubing unless u wanna foot the extra 100 bucks for the colerain... "Standard lengths are 24" 36" 42" and 46" available in .50 .54 .62 and .75 caliber Cloverleaf groups at thirty yards are common. They are made up from industrial grade hydraulic tubing. It's 1026 mild carbon steel much stronger than anything made in the 18th century. I have proof tested them with 250 grs. of FFFg black powder and six patched round balls. I took caliper measurements of the diameter in six locations before and after with absolutely no change. Colerain brand octagon to round smoothbore barrels are available for additional 100.00" ....est. 40 bucks tops.

maybe 25 bucks for triggers, and 50 bucks for the rest of the bits n pieces cuz he buys in bulk at wholesale prices.

thats $240 for pretty much everything as far as i can tell from company website prices and takin a pretty good guess. so maybe 300 bucks in parts..... "We require a nonrefundable deposit of $300.00 on standard long guns a $400.00 deposit on all swamped barrel orders. I consider this payment earnest money in good faith and is used to purchase the majority of the components for your gun."

and shipping... " We generally ship insured ground UPS and its $25.00 extra. Barrels longer than the standard 42" we charge $45.00." .... is pretty well covered.

the cumberland smoothbore in .75 is $675, in the white, bare bones poor boy style. that makes "sweet larry" 375 bucks. now the one i want will have a wood patchbox, nosecap and the 75 dollar extra stock. that puts us at 800 bucks plus shipping. and he gets to pocket about 500-550 of that. now for a retired guy that just does it for fun, and has no real bills, thats pretty decent wages for a weeks work....probably less.

:hmm: :peace:

BTW, he sells the kit for the cumberland for 475 bucks, so if it costs him 455 for parts, he's doing all that basic shaping and pre-inletting for a twenty??? there's just no way.

im not trying to undermine anyone here as im not a gunbuilder in the least. and there's absolutely no excuse for the poor workmanship that got sent out in that box, but i really doubt that it was intentional considering his previous reputation. id bet that the summer help (probably along the lines of a 14yr old nephew or something) was told to "box that gun up after lunch break" and the kid had it wrapped by the time our hero got back out to the shop. probably had to #2 after lunch (i know i do at times) and sent the "help" back to work alone for a few minutes. no big deal, but kids are kids. :nono:

one possible scenario :imo:
 
This business of trying to figure out how much profit a guy makes on a gun is ridiculous. It's like everything else has been bestowed on the guy by some benefactor. There's no cost of tools, disposables, shipping for the parts HE receives. This is a childish game. If any of you think it's easy or somebody is making big bucks building rifles, or the time someone spends shopping around for this or that cheap part at Mom and Pop's ML supply isn't real time, then open shop and bring it on. It's easy to boo the athlete from the stands. Get out on the field and let's see how you do. I hear the same stuff by doctors and lawyers when they complain about paying $75 an hour for their car repair. Meanwhile a surgeon charges $2000 for a half hour knee arthroscopy (it's cause of malpractice, I swear!). Let them try to keep a garage open while charging $40 an hour or whatever they think is fair. This is the same deal.

This is turning into a mob scene, people piling on.
Word on the street is the guy shipped an ugly gun. Y'all got that now? We need to go over this some more?

IF YOU WANT TO SAVE BIG MONEY ON A GUN BUILD IT YOURSELF. Figure out how much time you spend from beginning to end, from the thinking to the parts selection to ordering and waiting then building and fussing and finishing and packing and going to UPS and answering the phone and 100 emails and checking the ML board to see if you're getting roasted etc. I hope it comes out good. I follow my own advice. I built every muzzle loader I own except the antiques. Saved money, had fun, loved every minute. I have also sold a few as a hobby-builder, averaging about $3 an hour on plain guns and $6 an hour on fancy ones back in the late 70's and early 80's. I considered it gravy. Thought briefly about going into business but then a difficult customer came along and I realized I like building the guns, not dealing with customers.

I hope ERA stays open and does well. But it's been said 11 different times now, "you get what you pay for.". In my opinion, folks should go buy a factory gun if they want something inexpensive, on time, like everything else. Yes, the man advertises at that price and ought to deliver. We understand that now. Thanks for pointing that out.

cheap, fast, good If you're a gambling man, on a good day you can have 2 of the 3. Pick two and hope the horse is feeling his oats.

I feel so much better now. All this brought back memories of the nightmare customer who saved me from going into the rifle making business. If I'd known he was an angel in disguise, I'd have been more thankful he saved me from disaster.
 
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