anyone shooting authentic arms?

[4bore]

currious if anyone here is shooting authentic arms built during the period cept maybe a bbl swap for safeties sake.and if you are what criteria do you look at while viewing guns?
I have interest in a period fowler and dont wann blow my self up. was the metaluragy poor? :surrender:

 

[Story]

The North-South Skirmish Association routinely certifies original arms for competition. There's a fellow name Hoyt that lines many of the barrels.
Check here [url] http://www.n-ssa.org/phpbb/index.php?sid=739bc852d9fc637ce574cf97f5fadc4e[/url]

 

[paulvallandigham]

Barrel made much before WWI were generally made of iron, and not steel. So, yes, relatively speaking, the metallurgy was poor, compared to what can be done today.

Its very difficult to find an original( authentic, as you say) firearm in good enough condition to shoot, that should not be left in a museum. The benefit of shooting replicas is that the originals can be around for 100s of years for people to study, and understand, hold, and admire. Replicas offer a gun made of modern materials, at a cost far less than what you might have to pay for an original.

If you can find a fowler in original condition, that is in good enough shape to shoot, its value would be in the thousands of dollars- far more money than most people could afford to risk damaging or losing. Why not just get a modern replica fowler and shoot that?

 

[Mike Brooks]

Yes I do, I shoot a flint doubble 18 bore with damascus barrel that was built around 1815 or so. Kills skeets and pheasants DEAD.
>
I used to own a 3rd model Brown Bess I used to shoot alot too. It was dated 1827.
My favorite Dbl cartridge gun is a damascus barreled 12 bore made by John Venables & son Ca. 1864. It was made as a pin fire and converted to center fire. Kills skeets and pheasants DEAD too.
Just because they're old doesn't mean they shouldn't be shot.

 

[JV Puleo]

I've never shot anything except original guns...although I'm not sure how to answer your question and will not take responsibility for telling someone else what is safe.

For my own part, I usually I look for 2 things...quality of the original and lack of obvious abuse. Finish isn't important, in fact I don't usually shoot guns that have a great deal of original finish. The metalurgy question has never been an issue to me...if they aren't abused, and show signs of considerable, if considerate, use I can't imagine why they would be unsafe to use today. Drawbacks are that they are often worn and, in the case of rifles, often have a rougher bore than most modern shooters are accostomed to using. I'll add that i've done some very good shooting with a Henry Pratt flint rifle that has a bore most "new made" shooters can hardly believe would work well.
I've stayed away from cheap, Blegian-made side-by-side shotguns but I shot a percussion Manton for years. I've no fear of damascus barrels providing they are loaded correctly and I suspect that their bad reputation is the result of ham-fisted overloading.
At the moment I'm using an unsigned .40 caliber NE hunting/target rifle and the Pratt flint rifle. I just recently I fired my Charles Grierson officer's fusil (ca.1796) and I have a Johnson M1817 (made in 1821) common rifle that I had freshed out by Hoyt about twenty years ago. I'm about to start using a M1800 Baker rifle that I had lined and rifled by Hoyt as it had been bored smooth many years ago.
When I began muzzleloading, around 40 years ago, everyone I met that was shooting was using original guns...reproductions were just appearing on the market. I have always felt that original guns, especially military ones, were generally of better quality than any of the factory made reproductions. In fact, I once bought a Parker-Hale Enfield with the intention of shooting it but was so dissapointed in the quality of the lock work that I sold it unfired.

Joe Puleo

 

[boar]

My grandson((12) shot his first deer this year using a doule barrel 11ga. They got it at Log Cabin Supply in Lodi,O. They thought it was around 150yrs old,English made. Shot it right thru the heart at 70yrds out of a treestand. He had 70grs 2ff and patched roundball,I think ball weights oz and half. I was sitting under the stand and he and his dad were in the stand. First shot he shot a limb off, he cocked other barrel and hit the deer, deer was standing when he shot, it ran a short ways and died. A young doe. This was first day of season. Dilly

 

[Dave K]

Yes, I shoot old origianl guns allot!!!! Both flint and percussion,shotguns and rifles. It is hard to explain to someone what is safe. But, I do complete examination before I do.

 

[Okwaho]

I agree with Joe here and I guess that I started about the same time{1961},I used to fire an old Pomeroy 1816 perc. musket with powder,toilet paper and BB's until I sold it for the staggering price of $25.00.We used to shoot a trapdoor with 60 grains of black powder and .457 round balls thumb pressed.I shot a Remington model 1890 single action in .44/40 cal.to match the Winchester 73 in the same caliber which I also shot til I traded them both off in a moment of weakness.I also shot an old {Ca.1830}Southwest[url] Va.mountain[/url] rifle in .40 cal. with a forged iron barrel for about 30 years. I could take out the breech plug with a pair of regular pliers but the threads were good and I didn't worry.That old iron barrel never did rust even when I let it go for 2-4 months without cleaning.I just cleaned it with water then took out the plug and poured boiling water through the barrel and it was instantly dry due to the evaporation.We had a lot of fun shooting those old smoke poles.
Tom Patton

 

[JV Puleo]

I'll add that there is a dimension to shooting original guns that means a great deal to me...I'm not a hunter and I haven't shot in a match for years but I still get a genuine thrill from shooting a gun that really was there...I call it "the voice of the 18th century". I am afraid, that for me, shooting a replica, even the best made one, just isn't the same thing.
There is also the challenge of trying to make something work that really is old without the advantages of 200 years of hindsight. How many new rifles have shallow, wide grooves and narrow lands? All of my original NE rifles have narrow rounded bottom grooves and wide lands. We now know that this isn't the best as regards accuracy but what is the challenge of applying modern technology to an archaic subject...

Joe Puleo

 

[J.D.]

I used to shoot an old Missouri made 32 fullstock cap gun, an 1842 musket converted to cap, a coupla percussion pistols, and and an 1858 CW rifle, not to mention a multitude of BP cartridge guns.

While shooting these original guns does lend a different dimension to the sport, I'm not ready to give up the reproduction guns that get the bulk of use.

I seem to remember reading that Walter Kline used an original Rev War vintage longrifle to prove that the stories of accuate long range shooting were plausible.

Kline fired ten shots at a full size silhouette of a British soldier at 600 yards. He scored six of ten shots. That's good shooting.

Appropriate safety inspections are required prior to firing any original firearm.
J.D.

 

[wallgunner]

Barrel made much before WWI were generally made of iron, and not steel. So, yes, relatively speaking, the metallurgy was poor, compared to what can be done today.

Its very difficult to find an original( authentic, as you say) firearm in good enough condition to shoot, that should not be left in a museum. The benefit of shooting replicas is that the originals can be around for 100s of years for people to study, and understand, hold, and admire. Replicas offer a gun made of modern materials, at a cost far less than what you might have to pay for an original.

If you can find a fowler in original condition, that is in good enough shape to shoot, its value would be in the thousands of dollars- far more money than most people could afford to risk damaging or losing. Why not just get a modern replica fowler and shoot that?

I agree 100%. Between myself, and my father we have many original 18th century pieces. I would love to shoot them, but you risk destroying our nations history. I'm a reenactor, and I own guns that were actually "there", but all that would be lost if somewthing went wrong when shooting it. It's not worth it.
As for a fowler to shoot, find an original and copy it, or have a gunsmith of your choice do it for you. You'd be suprised how close you can come when the gun your copying is on your workbench! Then instead of destroying history, you can make your own with a recreation.

 

[JV Puleo]

I can't equate shooting old guns with destroying them, or even taking the risk of destroying them provided they are used in a careful fashion...as I would use any gun. My brother-in-law regularly hunts with a Manton single barrel fowler he bought at the Baltimore Gun show at least 15 years ago and it looks as good today as it did when he bought it.

As for cost, depending on the type of gun in question, a custom made reproduction, or even some factory made guns, are more expensive than the originals they represent. For example: I have a French M1777 musket here by my desk...the Italian reproduction of it costs around $850...I paid $400 for it at a gun show in Hartford a bit over a year ago. And in this case condition is hardly an issue since its overall in excellent shape and I wouldn't hesitate to fire it.
Heavy target rifles are another example. A couple of months ago a good friend of mine bought three percussion rifles w/false muzzles etc, including a Nelson Lewis with its original box as well as the tools, at auction. In no case did he pay anywhere near as much as any one of the rifles would cost to duplicate. In fact, the most expensive target rifle sold at that sale went to an active member of the US muzzle loading team expressly to be shot. Shooting old guns isn't for everyone...if you are uncomfortable with the idea then don't do it but the question was "does anyone do this?" and the answer is both an emphatic yes and that, in my case at least, I regard them as being as safe as new guns.

JV Puleo

 

[wallgunner]

The gun I speak of is a Dutch Musket that according to George Neumann when he examined it was one of three types that came over during the F&I War. It dates to about 1720. Since very few exist, and was probably used in the F&I war and American Revolution, I would be destroying history if something went wrong. Men carried that arm into battle, and might have fell in battle with it, fighting for what they believed in. I owe it to them not to put it in harms way, and use it as a educational tool at events. What am I going to tell people when I show up at an event with the breech blown out? Yeah it's old, but I wanted to shoot an original?
Repros are expensive, custom gun even more so, but that's the price you pay for quality. That's the nature of this hobby. I glad you are happy shooting originals, and can do it safely. I choose not to.

 

[Okwaho]

That's the arguement I used to get when I carried my old Southwest Va.rifle into reenactments and I understand those who feel that way. But the truth is that it was then a $200.00 gun and my repro rifle was an $1800.00 gun.I would reply that if I were to lose or beat up my gun I would rather it be the $200.00 gun.It was really a simple matter of economics.I hear folks talk about"ORIGINALS" with the same reverence normally reserved to the "HOLY GRAIL"This may offend some but I have been buying, selling,trading,and collecting old guns for about 45 years and that's all they are,"OLD GUNS". To me they are tools to use not to worship.By the way I sold that old mountain rifle about 11 years ago for $300.00.

I guess some of you will want to get out the nais and 2v4's and have at it but that's the way I feel.
Tom Patton

 

[paulvallandigham]

Tom: I don't disagree with your decision. There are some common " old " guns that have no particular value, are not museum quality, and can best be served by using them, within reason. I am shooting several guns that are more than 100 years old. I may have a liner put into my Springfield 1886 Trapdoor .45-70, so that it will provide another 130 years of service. It is by no means rare, or of museum quality. I also shoot a " hardware store " turn of the century double barrel shotgun that has a twist finish, made in Belgium and sold by small hardware store and department store chains as low cost firearms to people who needed something to go hunting. The gun belonged to my grandfather, and other than that, has no value at all.

My brother shoots a restored percussion gun built in the 1870s, using a barrel that dates back to the early 1800s, and at one time was on a flintlock action. NO maker's name can be found, so it has no historical value other than being an example of a working class gun. He had the stock restored when he bought it, had the barrel bored out and re-rifled because of deep pits in the bore, and he had to replace several missing parts. But the guns shoots fairly well, and always draws attention when he's on the range shooting it.

I also have a friend who owns and shoots two rifles made in the 1840s, one of which he had to restore with extensive work. It was little more than junk- parts to repair another gun when he got it. Now it is a fine target rifle, shoots well, and is proudly displayed on his wall rack.

I do think there are some guns, such as this old Dutch fowler, that dates so far back in history, that it would be a shame of it were damaged by being used today. Some old guns are best left to be displayed and admired, but not shot.

 

[PreglerD]

I'm shooting an original smoothbore long gun, converted from flint to cap from 1820. It is a poor boy model with very less brass and iron parts. But I'm fascinated how good it shoots and how light and handy it is. I use only moderate loads of BP. Got the gun from a German auction house in Munich. There you can get many other nice originals. Here in GE once a year we have competitions with original ML.

 

[wszumera]

I've aways read warnings about shooting old damascus barreled arms.

How do you make sure that your guns are safe to shoot? It would seem that black powder would work its way into any flaws in the barrel and start eating the welds away.

Clutch

 

[Mike Brooks]

I've aways read warnings about shooting old damascus barreled arms.

How do you make sure that your guns are safe to shoot? It would seem that black powder would work its way into any flaws in the barrel and start eating the welds away.

Clutch

You take a good overall look at the condition and make your choice on your evaluation. I wouldn't attempt to shoot an old worn out piece of junk.
Ain't nothing wrong with damascus, the english have been proofing it for nitro since befor 1900.

 

[Okwaho]

Paul,your point is well taken and at the present time I am not shooting any old[url] guns.In[/url] fact I haven't done any live firing in about 10 years but plan on a resumption this spring.I think that one should be highly selective as to which old guns will be fired with live rounds primarily because of safety concerns.The only old gun we will be shooting will be an 1884 trap door and we will hand load with black powder.I was pretty well out of collecting until about two years ago when I began collecting again with an emphasis on guns from the colonial period through the Revolution.I don't have many yet but I too enjoy handling guns and accoutrements that were "there from the beginning" so to speak.A lot of us shot old guns in the 60's because they were just about all that was available and were cheap.You could get a lot of old guns for $100.00 or less and if you wanted to double that figure then you could get 66 winchester yellow boys and now and then a fair to middling Henry not to mention mountain rifles by the carload. Joe,you and I both remember those cheap New England rifles,fowlers and composite muskets we passed up because they were priced above $200.00 don't we.
Tom Patton

 

[varsity07840]

4bore:
I shoot these.

1816 musket, flint- Hoyt reline
1842 musket(rifled) Hoyt reline
1841 Mississippi Rifle-Hoyt reline
1863 musket
1830's Westley Richards English Sporting Rifle
.69 cal plains rifle-Hoyt freshed out/rerifled
1868, 1870, 1888 Trapdoors