Arbor Problem?

[BeardedGunsmith]

My 1849 pocket model has the short arbor. I'm just going to center drill the front of it and install a machine screw and cut it to length to where the cylinder gap is perfect when the wedge is tight.

Edit to add: Its a new Uberti

 

[M. De Land]

Careful! Wood bow making is every bit as adictive as muzzle loading. I'm here to testify!

Ain't it the ever love'n truth ! I made a few laminated bows with Ipe bellies and Hickory backs that held up well with little string follow but my new ones have been self bow Hickory (pyramid style) with fire baked bellies that hold string follow to about the same as Bodark (Old Sage Orange) or Pacific Yew without the growth ring chasing.
It makes Hickory tough in belly compression as well as it's already good back tension resistance.
All the Eastern Indians knew about and used it and we are just now rediscovering it. That is why they liked to use Hickory split by lightening which the white man thought was only Indian superstition.

 

[M. De Land]

My 1849 pocket model has the short arbor. I'm just going to center drill the front of it and install a machine screw and cut it to length to where the cylinder gap is perfect when the wedge is tight.

Edit to add: Its a new Uberti

I never liked that approach because some of those models were very thin already in the steel between the arbor slot end and arbor end. Drilling and tapping weakens an already thin area.
Also the screw end radius generally lessons the area the taper on the wedge has to seat against to stop barrel separation. Solid steel in the arbor end is always going to be stronger than the hole drilled through, threads tapped and screw that is going to replace it.
I would make a new heat treated, tool steel wedge, fit up on both axis closer than the factory number if it were mine. One mans opinion!

 

[BeardedGunsmith]

I never liked that approach because some of those models were very thin already in the steel between the arbor slot end and arbor end. Drilling and tapping weakens an already thin area.
Also the screw end radius generally lessons the area the taper on the wedge has to seat against to stop barrel separation. Solid steel in the arbor end is always going to be stronger than the hole drilled through, threads tapped and screw that is going to replace it.
I would make a new heat treated, tool steel wedge, fit up on both axis closer than the factory number if it were mine. One mans opinion!

Drilling and tapping the front of the arbor won't cause any issues.

 

[M. De Land]

Drilling and tapping the front of the arbor won't cause any issues.

A lot of folks get away with it so your probably right ! I was mainly referring to the models that are very thin in this area.

 

[JimCunn]

Arbor end is loaded in shear at the edges of the slot, so drilling and tapping for a screw won't weaken it.

How difficult is bois d'arc wood to work with?

 

[Bad Karma]

Arbor end is loaded in shear at the edges of the slot, so drilling and tapping for a screw won't weaken it.

How difficult is bois d'arc wood to work with?

Bois d’arc is easily worked with the common tools used for tillering bows. It is hard, very hard wood and when seasoned very sharp tools are a must but a good sharp drawknife, farriers (and other) rasps, and scrapers are the main tools.

 

[M. De Land]

Arbor end is loaded in shear at the edges of the slot, so drilling and tapping for a screw won't weaken it.

How difficult is bois d'arc wood to work with?

Drilling and tapping the end of these arbor slots is going to make them weaker than if left alone in their solid steel configuration and having a new hardened tool steel wedge fit to them to close the cylinder/barrel gap is going to be the strongest combination !
I've seen models with much less material in the end than the ones pictured and those are what I was referring to.
I've not worked any Pacific Yew and the one Old Sage Orange I made a bow of was so poor in grain run I was not able to keep from compromising a growth ring. I still have it but expect it will explode one of these days while shooting.
I used the same tools to work it and found it no harder to form than cured Hickory or Ipe. My Grizzly band saw sure takes a lot of the labor out of bow making!
I can get Kiln dried Hickory up here at the lumber yard used for dog sled runners and Ipe at a finish wood store so that is my primary wood source for bow making. Since I learned of the fire baking technique of Hickory to strengthen the belly's of the bows in compression there has been no need to use the other best bow woods much more expensive and hard to get up here.
Guess which picture shows the Old Sage Orange rough out ?
Baking the belly's of Hickory bows before final tiller.
My strings are made of dacron 55 and .032 serving , 14 strand which fits the arrow knocks well. I use the Flemish twist, continual loop of bow string configuration.
I haven't ventured into arrow making yet as carbon fiber arrows are so uniform of weight, strength and straightness one can not make a better arrow for accurate shooting.

 

[JimCunn]

"Drilling and tapping the end of these arbor slots is going to make them weaker than if left alone in their solid steel configuration"

As long as the drill/tap diameter is less than the slot width, it will have NO effect on the arbor SHEAR strength. And shear strength controls in this case.

Very nice work on the bows.

 

[M. De Land]

"Drilling and tapping the end of these arbor slots is going to make them weaker than if left alone in their solid steel configuration"

As long as the drill/tap diameter is less than the slot width, it will have NO effect on the arbor SHEAR strength. And shear strength controls in this case.

Very nice work on the bows.

I respectfully disagree about strength but have to admit that it appears to be adequate to the load encountered as lots of folks use and get away with the technique. I prefer to make a new,stronger and better fitting key to maintaining the original design.

 

[JimCunn]

"I respectfully disagree about strength"

I got no problem with that

 

[denster]

Drilling and tapping the end of these arbor slots is going to make them weaker than if left alone in their solid steel configuration and having a new hardened tool steel wedge fit to them to close the cylinder/barrel gap is going to be the strongest combination !
I've seen models with much less material in the end than the ones pictured and those are what I was referring to.
I've not worked any Pacific Yew and the one Old Sage Orange I made a bow of was so poor in grain run I was not able to keep from compromising a growth ring. I still have it but expect it will explode one of these days while shooting.
I used the same tools to work it and found it no harder to form than cured Hickory or Ipe. My Grizzly band saw sure takes a lot of the labor out of bow making!
I can get Kiln dried Hickory up here at the lumber yard used for dog sled runners and Ipe at a finish wood store so that is my primary wood source for bow making. Since I learned of the fire baking technique of Hickory to strengthen the belly's of the bows in compression there has been no need to use the other best bow woods much more expensive and hard to get up here.
Guess which picture shows the Old Sage Orange rough out ?
Baking the belly's of Hickory bows before final tiller.
My strings are made of dacron 55 and .032 serving , 14 strand which fits the arrow knocks well. I use the Flemish twist, continual loop of bow string configuration.
I haven't ventured into arrow making yet as carbon fiber arrows are so uniform of weight, strength and straightness one can not make a better arrow for accurate shooting.

I really like osage particularly after I located a fellow that was selling billets cut on a Southern military base that had late wood rings from1/8 to 1/4 in. Still have 20 sets of sister billets from that lot. Best preformance though was from bamboo backed osage glued up with about a 2" reflex. Osage works well with sharp rasps and tillering is a breeze using one of Dean Torges Bowyer's edge tools.

 

[Smokerr]

My take is putting a screw in the end of the Arbor is an odd way to deal with the issue.

It has to be sub size of the Arbor, it has threads that add flex and its not solid like a shim would be. In my view its a not nice correction even if it sort of or does work to the satisfaction of the person doing it.

You don't have to be perfect and you can make layers of shims with going down to beer can thickness if you so desire. One you got it sorted, glue em in place and they stay there.

And it does not weaken the Arbor which may or may not take that added stress, but the design diameter of it is there for a reason.

 

[JimCunn]

It is there for a reason, but that doesn't enter into the shear strength calculation.

 

[M. De Land]

I really like osage particularly after I located a fellow that was selling billets cut on a Southern military base that had late wood rings from1/8 to 1/4 in. Still have 20 sets of sister billets from that lot. Best preformance though was from bamboo backed osage glued up with about a 2" reflex. Osage works well with sharp rasps and tillering is a breeze using one of Dean Torges Bowyer's edge tools.

There actually are many good bow woods available other than Old sage, Yew, Lemon wood and Hickory. Two items trump all others in bow making, design and tiller ! You can make an excellent, long lasting bow out of any reasonable wood if it is designed and tillered properly to wood type being used.

 

[Bad Karma]

There actually are many good bow woods available other than Old sage, Yew, Lemon wood and Hickory. Two items trump all others in bow making, design and tiller ! You can make an excellent, long lasting bow out of any reasonable wood if it is designed and tillered properly to wood type being used.

Spoken like Tim Baker…

 

[M. De Land]

I respectfully disagree about strength but have to admit that it appears to be adequate to the load encountered as lots of folks use and get away with the technique. I prefer to make a new,stronger and better fitting key to maintaining the original design.

Here is the last one I made of A-2 tool steel. I make mine a bit longer and blind ended having no need for a keep spring.
Showing the two step hardeing protocol for A-2. I left out the third step temper draw in the photos.
And finally fitting it up.

 

[SPQR70AD]

I fixed so many arbors on stone age Colts that I am now an arborist. people mistake me for a tree expert

 

[M. De Land]

Here is the last one I made of A-2 tool steel. I make mine a bit longer and blind ended having no need for a keep spring.
Showing the two step hardeing protocol for A-2. I left out the third step temper draw in the photos.
And finally fitting it up.

Needed more photo room for the fit up. Notice there are no gaps top or back only the added clearance slotting to the front for the wider wedge/key in the barrel slots.

 

[45D]

A lot of folks get away with it so your probably right ! I was mainly referring to the models that are very thin in this area.

I'm sorry, I don't "get away with it" . . . be it Uberti (plenty of meat) or Pietta (not as much).
You apparently don't understand the dynamics at play. The reason for the set screw is for WEDGE ADJUSTMENT not for ARBOR CORRECTION!!!! .

The whole reason for ANY DISCUSSION OF A SPACER FOR CORRECTION AT ALL IS . . . FOR ARBOR CORRECTION!!!!!! THE SET SCREW IS A BEARING FOR THE WEDGE . . . NOT FOR ARBOR LENGTH CORRECTION!!!!! WHY WOULD YOU MAKE A SPACER TO CORRECT THE ARBOR LENGTH IF YOU'RE THEN GOING TO INSTALL A SET SCREW FOR ARBOR CORRECTION????????? MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE!!!!!!!!

WHY CANT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT A SPACER MADE FOR ARBOR CORRECTION HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH A SET SCREW FOR THE WEDGE ADJUSTMENT?????!!!!! IT'S THE SAME AS SAYING " GUESS WHAT ?? THE SET SCREW IN THE END OF THE ARBOR HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CORRECTION OF THE SHORTNESS OF THE ARBOR , BUT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE ABILITY TO ADJUST HOW FAR THE WEDGE GOES INTO THE WEDGE SLOT!!!!!
IF THE SET SCREW WAS THE DETERMINING FACTOR FOR THE ARBOR LENGTH, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU EVER MAKE A SPACER ???!!!!!! MY GOD !!!!!! PEOPLE JUST CAN'T READ FOR SOME REASON!!!!

The WEDGE "PULLS" THE BARREL ASSEMBLY AGAINST THE END OF THE ARBOR (WITH GREAT TENSION) SO THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY THOUGHT OF THE END OF THE ARBOR BEING WEAK ( it is being harnessed by the barrel assy!!!!) THE FORCE PULLING THE BARREL ASSEMBLY IS CONSTANT AND WILL ALWAYS BE PRESENT AS LONG AS THE WEDGE IS INSTALLED!!!!! SO, NOBODY IS "GETTING AWAY" WITH ANYTHING!!!!!! DEFINITELY MORE THAN ANYBODY IS GOING TO TEST IT WITH BLACK POWDER WHICH WILL NEVER BE CLOSE TO +P SMOKELESS AMMO!!!!


People that use a screw past the end of the arbor to correct the length don't have a clue what they are doing !!! . . and yes, I know a so called "professional" that touts this as a "fix" ( on YouTube) . . . and it's not correct ( and he knows it !!! It's just an easy "crutch").

Also, people that think the "perfect" wedge is all you need are clueless!!!

Mike