Uberti deceiving arbor fit

[springfield art]

If you talk to Rick at Stoeger he has conversations with the Italians a lot of the time because he apparently is in QC and he has to be in contact with them a lot, My Colt .36 years ago was a problem and he went right to Uberti over seas and got the answers I was needing. Stoeger Company importers are really easy to talk to and there super flexible about parts your needing I received just about everything I ever needed replaced they just can’t do a Frame Doug told me.

The new un-mentionable items that Stoeger imports now are fine quality at a good price.

 

[SPQR70AD]

Just for S's and Giggles, here is me shooting the very Walker I've been talking about!! Yes, that's a Remington on my left. This would be about 1986! ( notice the cool "Members Only" jacket!!! ).
View attachment 339734

Mike

is that pic from 1970 lol

 

[45D]

If one drives an over size thread lock pin into a sloppy thread fit the result is to wedge the arbor off center. The pin is designed to block rotation not stiffen the thread joint. Good thread fitting stiffens the joint and maintains arbor center in it's frame hole.

Could be that "sequence" may alleviate any alignment "problems" that could arise or occur.
When reinstalling an arbor I typically upset the shoulder in 4 places. The arbor is then HEAVILY torqued in place. One can use the pin hole as a "witness mark" and I typically "sneak up" on the mark and check the wedge slot alignment to help with "guesstimateing" how much to tweak to final install position. Before driving in the locking pin, you should install the barrel with wedge driven in solidly. This will maintain alignment while driving in the pin. Cut pin and file the surface.
Typically the barrel will remove easily and more often than not, will fall off so be careful ( remove it over a table or at least a rug!!)
I don't necessarily recommend any thread locker on the threads or the pin.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Could be that "sequence" may alleviate any alignment "problems" that could arise or occur.
When reinstalling an arbor I typically upset the shoulder in 4 places. The arbor is then HEAVILY torqued in place. One can use the pin hole as a "witness mark" and I typically "sneak up" on the mark and check the wedge slot alignment to help with "guesstimateing" how much to tweak to final install position. Before driving in the locking pin, you should install the barrel with wedge driven in solidly. This will maintain alignment while driving in the pin. Cut pin and file the surface.
Typically the barrel will remove easily and more often than not, will fall off so be careful ( remove it over a table or at least a rug!!)
I don't necessarily recommend any thread locker on the threads or the pin.

Mike

I think a circular one piece shim would work better and cover more shoulder area than a four point upset on the shoulder. I've used one on a Magnum pistol barrel to take up thread slack and it's still working perfectly.

 

[45D]

I think a circular one piece shim would work better and cover more shoulder area than a four point upset on the shoulder. I've used one on a Magnum pistol barrel to take up thread slack and it's still working perfectly.

That might be better for a truly LOOSE arbor but even BETTER might be to turn a new arbor, build up the shoulder and re cut, . . . there's several ways to accomplish the desired result. There's also "how far do you go" with no truly better result? Not to mention a time element as well as cost.
All you're really doing is reestablishing the original mating surfaces with extra tension on the threads. Some new in the box revolvers have a "loose" arbor, not "hand" loose but "arbor in the vice - can you feel movement of the frame" loose. By default, conversion revolvers get their arbors reinstalled as part of the process . . . just to make sure they aren't "just this side" of loose!! They then get the recoil shield trued relevant to the arbor reinstall ( all recoil shields are off !!!). That insures the conversion ring is true relative to the cylinder on said arbor.

As far as going to extreams on these revolvers, "time efficient" corrections are the rule!! Of course working on your own is where "DISCOVERY" is found!!

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

That might be better for a truly LOOSE arbor but even BETTER might be to turn a new arbor, build up the shoulder and re cut, . . . there's several ways to accomplish the desired result. There's also "how far do you go" with no truly better result? Not to mention a time element as well as cost.
All you're really doing is reestablishing the original mating surfaces with extra tension on the threads. Some new in the box revolvers have a "loose" arbor, not "hand" loose but "arbor in the vice - can you feel movement of the frame" loose. By default, conversion revolvers get their arbors reinstalled as part of the process . . . just to make sure they aren't "just this side" of loose!! They then get the recoil shield trued relevant to the arbor reinstall ( all recoil shields are off !!!). That insures the conversion ring is true relative to the cylinder on said arbor.

As far as going to extreams on these revolvers, "time efficient" corrections are the rule!! Of course working on your own is where "DISCOVERY" is found!!

Mike

I think even the solidest threaded arbor flexes when firing personally which is why I question if slight felt movement has any discernible negative influence.
I've done quite a bit of 1911 custom work and tuning where most everything has tolerance movement which is a necessity for reliability. My personal Colt that I re-barreled , re-bushed, tightened the slide and added lots of bells and whistles to has shot a .910 five shot group from a Ransom rest at 25 yards with Federal American Eagle ammo and is so tight it rings when the hammer is dropped on an empty chamber. Well executed tuning with good parts definitely improves chances for better accuracy in any platform Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut I have also seen some 1911s ( Pre- Gold Cup ,Colt National Match ) with what I consider excessive slide, bushing play and a factory barrel that I believe would give my fully customized gun a run for it's money from a Ransom rest. The reason is because when it comes back to battery it drops back into it's wear pattern and starts out the same with each new cycling.
I think the same scenario happens in revolvers as well but tightening tolerances generally speaking increases the chances for a better outcome.

 

[45D]

I think even the solidest threaded arbor flexes when firing personally which is why I question if slight felt movement has any discernible negative influence.
I've done quite a bit of 1911 custom work and tuning where most everything has tolerance movement which is a necessity for reliability. My personal Colt that I re-barreled , re-bushed, tightened the slide and added lots of bells and whistles to has shot a .910 five shot group from a Ransom rest at 25 yards with Federal American Eagle ammo and is so tight it rings when the hammer is dropped on an empty chamber. Well executed tuning with good parts definitely improves chances for better accuracy in any platform Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut I have also seen some 1911s ( Pre- Gold Cup ,Colt National Match ) with what I consider excessive slide, bushing play and a factory barrel that I believe would give my fully customized gun a run for it's money from a Ransom rest. The reason is because when it comes back to battery it drops back into it's wear pattern and starts out the same with each new cycling.
I think the same scenario happens in revolvers as well but tightening tolerances generally speaking increases the chances for a better outcome.

I've had '51 RM's in the shop with headspace issues as well as '72 OT's with the same problem. I'm pretty sure a common thread was that they all had loose arbors. The '72's from Cimarron were probably treated per Cimarron's instructions which say to tighten the wedge screw and back the wedge back out until it contacts the screw ( which is utterly ridiculous!!!) !!! So, it was shot with a loose setup for however long . . .

The RM's on the other hand apparently had been "cantankerous" since new and others had tried to remedy the problem with no improvement. It turns out they both had headspace problems as well.
The arbor is what holds the conversion ring in place so with the recoil shield trued and the ring and arbor reinstalled with adjusted headspace ( and arbor length of course!!), everything works better than it should!! Likewise, the '72's with torqued arbors and corrected length, headspace adjustment and new instructions to "leave the wedge tight !!!!" . . . they run better than they ever have. That's according to Jedi Knight and Tame Bill.

Mike

 

[wazza shooter]

I’ve shot some hot loads through my Walker on a few different occasions and now my arbor has a very slight wiggle. I’m not sure if it was like this before or not. I was actually trying to fix the short arbor issue when I discovered the wiggle.

I was previously aware of the Uberti arbor issues, and when I checked mine it seemed to be fit correctly. To my surprise the frame/barrel matched perfect, so I kept on shooting.

I later learned that although the frame/barrel fit up nicely the arbor was still short. This is because the Uberti arbor is slightly tapered, and as you slide the arbor into the hole it stops as the taper gets too big. This makes you think the arbor is bottomed out when in reality it’s too thick and stops before it goes all the way to the bottom of the arbor hole, thus still leaving a gap. This allows the stretching motion on the arbor and will ruin them eventually.

To find out how short the arbor was I got close by measuring the depth of the arbor hole and then measuring how far the barrel slides onto the arbor and subtracting. Then I installed my shim.

Thickness at the end of the arbor—.500
View attachment 324850

Thickness where the barrel stops—.528
View attachment 324851

More pictures showing how the tapered arbor increases in thickness causing a false “bottoming out”
View attachment 324852View attachment 324853


Anyways, I hope this revolver isn’t ruined and I’ll continue to shoot and monitor the arbor for stretch/looseness. If you have an Uberti walker I suggest checking the arbor via measurements and not the frame/barrel fit up method as that may be deceiving.

Hi Wazza Shooter from Australia, I am having quality control issues with THREE Uberti revolvers that have loose arbors. Walkers X 2 and 1 1849 pocket. I sent the first Walker back with a loose arbor and had it replaced only to find that after 15 shots out of the second one that it also has movement, and I am taking it back tomorrow. I am only loading 30gn by volume of 3fff nowhere a top load. Also Barrel and frame not lining up (see Photo) Really over Uberti at the moment. I have a dragoon that I bought from another shop and no problems at all. Have not heard back from importer yet on the 1849 pocket as yet and it has been 3 weeks. The Arbors are actually moving not much but they should not. I have a 1863 Colt army and a 1865 colt 1849 pocket and they are 160+ years old and they have no movement, and I shoot them all the time?

 

[Marc H]

Group,

Sorry if this has been asked before. Why does Uberti manufacture the arbors short? There must be a reason why they have made this decision.

Marc

 

[M. De Land]

Group,

Sorry if this has been asked before. Why does Uberti manufacture the arbors short? There must be a reason why they have made this decision.

Marc

They're selling guns like hot cakes "without" end fitting and they are generally better fit and finished in all other respects than their competitors !

 

[Marc H]

M. De Land,

Then the reason is to reduce any "hand fitting" and save manufacturing time?

Marc

 

[CaptainKirk]

M. De Land,

Then the reason is to reduce any "hand fitting" and save manufacturing time?

Marc

Hand fitting has to be passed on the the consumer in terms of higher prices, Marc (although Pietta seemed to get the message loud and clear and has corrected any short arbor issues long ago). There is also the Ostrich Syndrome...bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist, and then for you as a company, it doesn't.
Somebody told me a loooong time ago to think of a BP revolver as an "assembled kit gun" and proceed accordingly (Thanks, Mike!)

 

[CaptainKirk]

Group,

Sorry if this has been asked before. Why does Uberti manufacture the arbors short? There must be a reason why they have made this decision.

Marc

Uberti has done a 180 with the knowledge provided to them by us end users and actually incorporates it into the owner's manual described as using the wedge as an adjustment to set cylinder/barrel gap...and I quote:
"Keep in mind the wedge is the means of adjusting the barrel to cylinder gap. If the wedge is pushed in too far, the cylinder gap will be too tight and the cylinder cannot rotate. The revolver jams. If this happens, back out the wedge."
Nice try, but....no. I was born at night, but not last night.

 

[45D]

Uberti started off (late 50's - early 60's) with arbors of correct length which I reported on in the "cap and ball 120 y." thread. ( even showed pics of basically the very same revolver he was using!)
So, I think it's pretty obvious "more" production is priority over "correct" production. Besides, shoot heavy loads, beat revolver up, replace beat up revolver . . . they're cheap!! Or, shoot light loads, they are fun, buy more!!! Uberti wins no matter what.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

They're selling guns like hot cakes "without" end fitting and they are generally better fit and finished in all other respects than their competitors !

I would only be speculating as to their reasoning as are all others but it doesn't seem like they think arbor end fit nearly as important as some folks do.
So I wonder why go to so much trouble to all other aspects of fit and finish and not end fit the arbor? I would think arbor end fit being so easy with CNC driven machinery would be much more cost effective than some of their other advanced manufacturing techniques they deem critical.

 

[SDSmlf]

Maybe Uberti is selling all the revolvers they can make without any process improvements. The old bottom line thing this quarter. Not a problem today…. so not a problem.

 

[Smokerr]

This has been going on far too long to buy that.

"Keep in mind the wedge is the means of adjusting the barrel to cylinder gap. If the wedge is pushed in too far, the cylinder gap will be too tight and the cylinder cannot rotate. The revolver jams. If this happens, back out the wedge."

Its not a flaw, its a feature!

Following 45D approach, I have mine down to .004 or so gap, and it does not close up if I smack the wedge with a plastic headed hammer the way he says to (and I fully believe by the way)

I am beginning to ponder it is a bigger change for them than is obvious. I wonder if they have tolerance issues (failure to be able to mfg to tight ones) and its their answer to it, keep it loose, and then, wallah, you can adjust the gap with the wedge!

I ran into that in the late 80s working on a Volbo diesel (I was assist). The Journeyman Mechanic had been trying to figure out the letter labeling on Pistons and Sleeves. We had started to assemble the piston/con rod assembly when he had a flash.

What they had done was match a certain size range piston up to a corresponding sleeve such that the clearance was withing a specific range. They had it down to two sizes. So rather than get their mfg quality up to snuff, they elected to go cheap and measure and match.

That was something I only had heard of back in the 30s (and probably prior).

Those Europeans can be a bit strange to say the least.

 

[Marc H]

The Uberti "fit and finish" has been noted as being better than other manufactures. This must take some production time and have a cost. Yet, the time to have the arbor fit correctly into the well is not done.

My conclusion has to be that the Uberti gun designer must believe that the wedge is the critical piece and not the arbor fit.

I believe that the Uberti designer is wrong.

Marc

 

[AlexB]

Stop buying them and they will fix it however people keep buying as is so why change.

 

[M. De Land]

Stop buying them and they will fix it however people keep buying as is so why change.

I suspect this move by Pietta is a smart business move and as word gets out will increase their sales causing Uberti to get the message. Perception is everything in sales wither end fit is necessary or not.