Are flintlock hammers hardened?

[jerrywh]

Even CVA, Thomsom Center, Traditions and Pedersoli locks have case hardened lockplates and externals. I would think that anybody who calls themselves a CUSTOM GUNMAKER could at least say he was equal to those. Modern flintlock hammers need not be hardened and tempered but the locks that do have hardened exterior parts are superior to those that don't. We are all free to chose the category we wish to be in.
The equipment to do the job is not expensive. It is easy to learn. It's PC. It will give you great satisfaction. Taking a bath is not madatory either. Stophel, this statement is not directed at you. It's just a statement in general.
:wink:

 

[dave_person]

Hi Dragoon,
Let me repeat my comment. Hardening may not be necessary but it improves function and helps resist rust and wear. If you harden the cock then you should harden the lockplate or the bolster where the shoulder of the cock hits will be hammered down because the cock will be harder than the plate. If you don't want to harden the plate, leave the cock soft.

dave

 

[JV Puleo]

A word regarding imported locks... and prior to the Civil War, about 99% of locks on civilian arms were imported. They were all hardened and the holes for the lock bolts were drilled and threaded. I do not know if they came with screws, them may have but I've never seen confirmation of that. If they did, then it was something so common as to not elicit any comment.

The cheapest lock listed on the W. Ketland wholesale price list for 1812 is described "Common Fence Gunlocks Hardened and Engraved." The price was 17s per dozen...

 

[valerio]

Ok so, hammer and lock plate home made case hardened, frizzen industrial cyanide case hardened.
thanks helping me taking a decision, as soon as I finish the hammer I will post a picture. :thumbsup:

 

[jerrywh]

You don't need cyanide, they were just pack hardened in charcoal.

 

[valerio]

You don't need cyanide, they were just pack hardened in charcoal.

hmmm, yes but I've heard industrial hardened frizzens are more efficient than home made hardened ones so thats why I thought doing it that way.

 

[jerrywh]

Charcoal isn't a home made method. That's the conventional way they did it for hundreds of years. Cyanide is prusiate of potash. or the prusic acid presipitate of potasium carbonate. They both just put carbon in the steel or iron.
If you do use cyanide I recomand you use potasium FERRO cyanide as apposed to potassium FERRI. Cyananide. The ferro cyanide is much safer and does the same thing. Good luck finding some.
Nothing works better than pack hardening in charcoal. I tried them all thru the years. But , what do I know?

 

[matt denison]

"...industrial hardened frizzens are more efficient.. "

They are only more efficient for the industry making them. Not for the end user. Ask a gunsmith like Mike Lea who spends tons of time re-hardening them for customers (and charging them for it too) Go for the good old fasioned American made stuff that is made from good steel and will harden in conventional ways.

 

[valerio]

Charcoal isn't a home made method. That's the conventional way they did it for hundreds of years. Cyanide is prusiate of potash. or the prusic acid presipitate of potasium carbonate. They both just put carbon in the steel or iron.
If you do use cyanide I recomand you use potasium FERRO cyanide as apposed to potassium FERRI. Cyananide. The ferro cyanide is much safer and does the same thing. Good luck finding some.
Nothing works better than pack hardening in charcoal. I tried them all thru the years. But , what do I know?

Jerry don't get me wrong, what I meant was that a treatment like case hardening has to be made at home, that's what I meant with homemade, no argument on the efficiency of the method thou, now for industrial cyanide I meant the method they do at a company not at home, I can't do it in my home cause the special equipment like the ovens and chemicals they have, that's what I meant with industrial, I'm not %100 sure what kind of cyanide they use and not my business anyway, I just thought that such treatment would be better or let's say more uniform than caseharden it by myself specially since this would be the first time case hardening something so I'm a little bit worried about the results.
I really do appreciate all of you guys opinions, so if you consider that industrial hardening is not necessary and a good casehardening do the trick so I'm gonna try it. :grin:

 

[Zonie]

Personally, I haven't heard of any company in the United States using cyanide hardening for over 40 years. OSHA takes a dim view of folks being around hot poisonous substances.

Because if its poisonous nature I strongly suggest that any thoughts about using any cyanide compounds be removed from any consideration.

Packed charcoal, leather, bone and Kasenit are all safe alternatives and work just as well.
Espically Kasenit which is made specifically for case hardening and it is so low in cost that it can't be beat.

 

[JV Puleo]

Jerry is 100% right and cyanide is the cheap method... cyanide hardening was also developed long after the flint period in order to save labor, not because it was superior, which is isn't. Regarding the metal involved, don't be so certain that the old materials were all that inferior. Most locks on American guns were made in Birmingham, England. B'ham was virtually the birthplace of the British steel industry. One of the main roads bordering the gunmaking district is "Steelhouse Lane", named for a steel making furnace that was established in the middle of the 17th century. Blister steel was made there and, after 1742, crucible steel by Huntsman's method. Prior to this, the best quality steel was imported from India. Internal lock parts were commonly made of steel... in fact, B'ham was famous for its steel workers.

This is much to big and complicated a story for an internet forum but suffice it to say that presuming that they were backward or their materials decidedly inferior because they didn't have the mass production techniques of the 20th century is a giant mistake. Incidentally, good quality crucible steel was never made in the US. We never mastered the technique.

If you'd like to actually learn something about 18th and 19th century metallurgy look up Art Gogan's "Fighting Iron." An excellent book, one of the most informative I've ever read.

 

[jerrywh]

I strongly recommend not using any form of cyanide. Potassium Ferro cyanide is the safest one but there is no fool proof cyanide. Any contact with any kind of acid can be fatal. I recently disposed of hundreds of dollars’ worth of cyanide gold plating solution just because it gives me the creeps. Cyanide gas is invisible, odorless and tasteless. You can tell if you get cyanide poisoning because you will be dead. Those who come to see what happened may also die. I use a lot of acids and that presents a big problem. Like aqua fortis and cyanide spells curtains.

 

[valerio]

Personally, I haven't heard of any company in the United States using cyanide hardening for over 40 years. OSHA takes a dim view of folks being around hot poisonous substances.

I don't live in the U.S
Ok, so case harden everything would be the route to go.
Thanks you all for the information. I really appreciate that. :thumbsup:

 

[TARL01]

Jerry, perhaps 1/3 of human beings can smell some form of Cyanide. It smells like "Bitter Almonds" to most of those that can.
But I certainly agree that it is DEADLY. Hydrogen Cyandide (and Cyanogen Cloride) bonds with Oxygen on the molecular level. So even if you are still breathing, you are still dying because your lungs cannot process only Oxygen into the blood, you develope "Cyanosis" (blue lips and blue tinted skin) and die over the period of a few minutes.
The plus side - if I can even write that - is that it is difficult to get a deadly concentration outside, it take an inclosed space to really do the job.
Sorry to write all this. It is only that I used to do defensive measures for Chemical and Biological attacks in the Air Force.

 

[jerrywh]

But ---even if you could smell it , it only means your dead if you do.

 

[Zonie]

Cyanide gas was the choice for gas chambers.
More than one convict found that breathing it would send them on their way to their next destination.

 

[valerio]

I need to go there to buy some 4140 so I will ask someone there about the process, just for curiosity

 

[J.D.]

I need to go there to buy some 4140 so I will ask someone there about the process, just for curiosity

Now I'm confused. Is this a lock you are making, or a factory made piece? Or, is the 4140 for another project?

 

[valerio]

I am making the whole pistol not just the lock, so far i have already done the hammer, upper jaw, trigger, ramrod and actually working on the stock, that's why I asked if they were hardened or not.
4140 is to make the barrel but that would be someday next week. :v

 

[SDSmlf]

In the early 80s (1980s) I personally case harden parts using cyanide salts. I won’t go into the details of the process, but it was a production process to harden teeth on large gears. Also, I still see industrial cyanide heat treating furnaces listed on furnace manufacturers’ sites.

This link (http://www.mymajors.com/careers-and-jobs/Cyanide-Furnace-Operator#colleges ) is for Cyanide Furnace Operator Career Information and lists over 405 schools that offer majors relevant to a career as a Cyanide Furnace Operator.