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Are muzzleloading still antiques?
- Thread starter johnh
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Phil Coffins
69 Cal.
If you cut the receiver for a loading gate then you have a cartridge gun regardless if it has the percussion cylinder in place.
Phil is right, cutting the frame can't be undone.
64Springer
75 Cal.
Those sites are full of ****. If it were true, Midway USA would not be shipping percussion revolvers to their customers sans 4473s.
Black powder is black powder is black powder. Percussion is percussion is percussion.
A cap n ball revolver can be bought over the counter with ZERO restrictions. Age I'm sure comes into play though.
A Ruger Old Army in Percussion form can be shipped with no problem. Same holds true for 1851s, 1858s, 1860s, 1862s etc.
IF IF IF IF IF the above revolvers are shipped with Conversion Cylinders, they have to be shipped to an 01FFL for a 4473 transfer. Though I'm not sure how you would transfer a frame that has no serial number. What would you put in the A&D books? Which brings us right back to cap n ball guns not being firearms at all.
One may ask, how do we get around the law while following the law? Simple.
Ship the revolver and the conversion cylinder in two separate packages. As both items standing alone have no restrictions on them.
Black powder is black powder is black powder. Percussion is percussion is percussion.
A cap n ball revolver can be bought over the counter with ZERO restrictions. Age I'm sure comes into play though.
A Ruger Old Army in Percussion form can be shipped with no problem. Same holds true for 1851s, 1858s, 1860s, 1862s etc.
IF IF IF IF IF the above revolvers are shipped with Conversion Cylinders, they have to be shipped to an 01FFL for a 4473 transfer. Though I'm not sure how you would transfer a frame that has no serial number. What would you put in the A&D books? Which brings us right back to cap n ball guns not being firearms at all.
One may ask, how do we get around the law while following the law? Simple.
Ship the revolver and the conversion cylinder in two separate packages. As both items standing alone have no restrictions on them.
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Hmmm ... age: maybe not. I've bought several cap 'n ball revolvers online and shipped direct to home via USPS and never had to qualify my age.
Though ... it might vary depending on state laws.
Yup. Totally legal.
Black powder firearms and legal antique firearms are two different animals altogether, and subject to completely different sets of firearm definitions and laws.
Phil Coffins
69 Cal.
With a cap and ball revolver, it isn’t regulated like a modern firearm but it isn’t an antique. Altering the frame of a currently made cap and ball to allow a conversion cyclinder to be loaded with a metallic cartridge makes it a modern pistol. The frame is the regulated part as in most firearms. The rules are confusing some times be cause a modern made replica of an antique gun that excepts metallic cartridge is classed as modern and requires all the rules of the any modern gun.
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The companies that are requiring all convertible cap and balls pistols be sent to an FFL are doing it to cover their butt. Plain and simple. They figure if it gets sent to an FFL, what happens to it after that is of no consequence to them. There is now an FFL dealer between them and the future owner.
64Springer
75 Cal.
What is an FFL going to do with a frame that has no serial number?
They have nothing to put in their A&D book.
Unless the FFL is doing it as a courtesy service for their customers and they're going to hand it over to the end user without a 4473 being filled out.
Though I'm certain the FFL is getting a "Transfer" fee for all their "Trouble".
It's dumb and beyond useless sending a percussion revolver to an FFL.
They simply put down that it has no serial number. I have had it done with modern rifles, which weren't required to have serial numbers until 1968.
They know how to deal with that. Been there, done that, with a pre-serial number firearm that required an FFL transfer. Required a 4473 and a NICS background check. The lack of a serial number has nothing to do with whether a firearm requires an FFL intermediary and background check or not.
Depends on STATE LAW, not on Federal firearms laws. Some states do require an FFL even for a black powder firearm. It's unconstitutional, due to the Supremacy clause, but has to be individually challenged, go through the judicial system, and finally accepted by SCOTUS with standing for each and every state and each and every suit where preemption is claimed and a plaintiff alleges injury due to the challenged preemption. Hardly likely in the short term. For now, you just have to know where and how to deal with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_preemption
64Springer
75 Cal.
^^^That would fall under Curio and Relic 03FFL rules.^^^
Guns that are more than 50 years old don't require a background check if the buyer has an 03FFL.
The ATF provides us with the legal means to avoid FFLs and FFL transfer fees on all but the most modern of firearms.
It's a shame folks refuse to take advantage of these rules and regulations.
PS: Doing a 4473 on a gun without a serial number means nothing. The serial number is supposed to be a method of tracking down a firearm if stolen or if used in a crime. Saying the gun is Remington Nylon 66 means nothing. As there where zillions of them made. It's a way for an FFL to shyster 50 bucks or more out of someone.
Guns that are more than 50 years old don't require a background check if the buyer has an 03FFL.
The ATF provides us with the legal means to avoid FFLs and FFL transfer fees on all but the most modern of firearms.
It's a shame folks refuse to take advantage of these rules and regulations.
PS: Doing a 4473 on a gun without a serial number means nothing. The serial number is supposed to be a method of tracking down a firearm if stolen or if used in a crime. Saying the gun is Remington Nylon 66 means nothing. As there where zillions of them made. It's a way for an FFL to shyster 50 bucks or more out of someone.
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Shakespeare: The law is an ***.
Maybe not so much the basics of anglo saxon law which, if not based on the 10 Commandments certainly parallels them.
But so much of law which followed after? Bodies of "wise men" seeking to determine whose goat got gored. Yet none of them ever saw a goat in person, let alone a goat herd.
Maybe not so much the basics of anglo saxon law which, if not based on the 10 Commandments certainly parallels them.
But so much of law which followed after? Bodies of "wise men" seeking to determine whose goat got gored. Yet none of them ever saw a goat in person, let alone a goat herd.
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I agree with you completely. Again I would guess the dealer that is requiring an FFL as the go between where not needed by law is just doing this for their own sake. They think this insulates them them from whatever happens with the firearm after it leaves the FFL. I don't know if there is any basis in law for this.
I would bet if you called one of the companies that is now doing business this way and asked them what they would do with a black powder weapon with no serial number they would say they wouldn't buy it in the first place. If it came in a collection they would part it out.
64Springer
75 Cal.
It's all been developed through sheer ignorance and a complete refusal to understand ATF firearm rules and regulations.
Some FFLs will look you squarely in the face and say they don't understand what an 03FFL is or how they work.
Ignorant laziness.
Sean E Bug
32 cal. or less
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so this is a bit of law that is very open to interpretation. no way to know where the line really is till someone is charged for breaking it. having the cylinder installed defiantly makes it a firearm. having it modified also might. but just having a cylinder or having a conversion commercially available I would feel is a step too far but a good lawyer could probably argue it.
Oh Really no serial number!!
Better go look at your cap & ball revolvers.
SMH
You're not getting around the law & there is no loophole.
Again ,I'll tell you guys to stop confusing antique firearm's with muzzleloaders.
As far as Midway shipping an item.
When you place that online order your stating that you're of age and you're allowed to possess in your area & state.
No , if it was built as a suppository style it's FFL time.
When you have black powder revolver it states on the barrel "black powder only".
You don't have to install a gate or gouge out the side of the backing plate to use a conversion cylinder.
