Are Swiss and Schuetzen the same powder?

[Stub]

I run out of Goex. I replaced that powder with Old Eynesford (Goex) and had problems. My gun that had no history of miss fires become a real problem child. During one match, I had 5 failures to fire. Using more caps wouldn't get the powder to fire, the charges had to be blown out with air. I also had several hang fires. Each time I removed the nipple there was lots of black muddy Stuff under the nipple that was wet.
One of the others at the match loaned me Goex and the gun went back to shooting fine. (Our muzzle loading friends are great people!!!)
I have just bought 2 pounds of Schuetzen and I'm hoping for better results.

 

[smokepolehall]

Some how your Old Eyn. picked up moisture, humidity really bad. Schuetzen is a bit hotter than Goex. Its less powerful than Swiss.

 

[Stub]

Some how your Old Eyn. picked up moisture, humidity really bad. Schuetzen is a bit hotter than Goex. Its less powerful than Swiss.

You are probably right about moisture, however I had never opened the can until shooting just before the match started. Also I had a new (unpleasant) experience with one of the failures to fire. We blew the ball and patch out with air pressure. I picked the ball up and gave it to the guy that helped me so he could melt it down when he made his own balls. I then wanted to be sure that the nipple was clear, so I aimed at a leaf on our sandy range looking towards the targets. I expected a bang when the cap went off but got a BOOM and a hole in the sand 2 inches deep and 6 inches wide. The air pressure had blown the ball and patch out but not the powder. My face was red and not from sunburn!

 

[SwampBilly]

I watched a very long video last night on black powders historical and current... I mean true black powder.

Supposedly dogwood charcoal is the best and that is what Swiss is made with. An equal amount of Swiss versus any other black powder, is said to produce 10% more gas volume. I was looking at buying some Schutzen as I have used that in the past successfully.

The Swiss cost 10 more dollars per pound but from everything I have seen it is worth it. I'm going to try to post the video in the next post if I can figure out how to work the functions here.

 

[SwampBilly]

 

[Bushfire]

I just got a price on Swiss here, $50us per lb. Happy to pay it for the quality of swiss

 

[TDM]

Swiss is tops, no doubt about that. I love it. But if your just out to shoot water jugs and plate targets it makes little difference. I still have Goex and Schuetzen of course. Swiss is cleaner, but I’ve found the level of humidity plays more into whether Goex or Schuetzen is less fouling, same for Swiss. Humidity is a killer.

 

[dave951]

Humidity is a killer.

Welllll......maybe.

We just finished up a couple sessions at Scout camps here in NC. Weather in NC has been rain, rain, more rain, and then followed by rain. At Camp Raven Knob, the fair size creek behind the range was almost out of it's banks. The swimming lake was so high the water was covered the boat and swimming docks. Rain varied from drizzle to biblical. There were areas on the range that were ankle deep in water. The kids still shot. No misfires. We had a set of tarps set up over the instructional tables and firing line so nobody was in the rain while shooting. Fast forward to Camp Bud Schiele. We had a couple misfires there due to excess oil in the flash channel on one gun (hey, we make the kids clean'em and they get enthusiastic on the oil!) and the other was a new gun to us that the camp provided. The nipple and flash channel were blocked with petrified oil. Cleared the issues, no misfires.

In our case, powder was only exposed to ambient humidity at the time of actually pouring the powder into the barrel. Folks who insist on keeping powder in horns or other improvised containers will always be fighting humidity. I've seen beautiful horns clog but never a factory container.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Good posts so far. I get different performance results with from the two. I do find Goex and Schutzen on a par performance wise.

 

[Sentry44]

What? Same company?!?!

They're made by different companies, in different countries. Just read the container!

Not only do they perform different, they even SMELL different. In my flintlocks (.54 and .50) I will use 90gr Scheutz vs 80gr Swiss. Some people say Swiss is more accurate, or cleans up better, but for the most part the biggest difference I find is Swiss is just a little hotter...and smells "sweeter."

Is it worth the premium? Probably not to a hunter. But maybe so to a paper puncher. Lots of guys will tell you so, so maybe that's true.

In limiting myself to 100 yrds MAX to shoot a deer with open sights I doubt I could take advantage of any accuracy difference. But guys who shoot competitively, at longer distances and/or smaller targets, may find an advantage in Swiss.

Even when Goex is available I may not switch from Scheutzen. Will have to test.

Sentry44

 

[#BPBReloadingFFL]

I would make my own powder before I bought a pound of schutzen.

Well they might be the same company wano. The three different powders they offer are vastly different from each other.

 

[Terrier]

I now have three brands…
Goex (30+ years old,) Schuetzen and Swiss (brand new). All FFFg.

I’ll have to do some comparison experimenting.

 

[TDM]

Welllll......maybe.

We just finished up a couple sessions at Scout camps here in NC. Weather in NC has been rain, rain, more rain, and then followed by rain. At Camp Raven Knob, the fair size creek behind the range was almost out of it's banks. The swimming lake was so high the water was covered the boat and swimming docks. Rain varied from drizzle to biblical. There were areas on the range that were ankle deep in water. The kids still shot. No misfires. We had a set of tarps set up over the instructional tables and firing line so nobody was in the rain while shooting. Fast forward to Camp Bud Schiele. We had a couple misfires there due to excess oil in the flash channel on one gun (hey, we make the kids clean'em and they get enthusiastic on the oil!) and the other was a new gun to us that the camp provided. The nipple and flash channel were blocked with petrified oil. Cleared the issues, no misfires.

In our case, powder was only exposed to ambient humidity at the time of actually pouring the powder into the barrel. Folks who insist on keeping powder in horns or other improvised containers will always be fighting humidity. I've seen beautiful horns clog but never a factory container.

I wasn’t clear in my comment. My problem with high 90%+ humidity is how quickly the prime in the pan turns to soup whether it’s 4F Swiss or Goex, requires a lot of wiping. Flintlocks are pretty much all I shoot now. I agree that rain itself isn’t a problem.

 

[SwampBilly]

Swiss is tops, no doubt about that. I love it. But if your just out to shoot water jugs and plate targets it makes little difference. I still have Goex and Schuetzen of course. Swiss is cleaner, but I’ve found the level of humidity plays more into whether Goex or Schuetzen is less fouling, same for Swiss. Humidity is a killer.

I live in Southwest Florida and it is the rainy season. I'm going to buy 2 lb which is probably a better part of a life supply for me so I think I'm going to go ahead and splurge and get the Swiss

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Although Swiss fouls less I find the fouling to be hard and dry which is a problem for what I use it for. Humidity has been incredibly low in Iowa this year so that may be part of my problem.

 

[George Andrix01]

For black powder cartridge silhouette and other longer range shooting Swiss and Old Eynesford are definitely the best. Check the equipment list of any long range black powder event. For short range round ball shooting it's hard to tell any difference.

 

[Paul-in-PA]

Following this discussion, Swiss, Schuetzen, Goex and maybe someday Olde Eynesford (Goex)? So we have three primary sources for black powder again - two European and one American.

I find this discussion interesting, I have been a flintlock and black powder cartridge rifle (BPCR) shooter. I find George's comments about Old Eynesford being definitely the best for BPCRs true. I get a nice tight group using 1 1/2 F Old Eynesford in my 45-70 BPCR, occasionally I use 2F Goex I don't like it as much - dirty and faster burn (2F vs 1 1/2F). Will definetly have to try Swiss when I am done with my remaining one and a half pounds ( about 125 to 150 rounds left) of Old Eynesford.

I have been a Goex fan for over 40 years, trying my first pound of Schuetzen. Time will tell if I change from Goex. Price and simplicity, one powder 2F or 3F, for most of my shooting; I like to keep it simple. I do some reenacting, so blanks, inline (those bad rifles with 209 primers) for hunting, and flintlock .62 cal fowler and 54 cal rifle for target/hunting. And on occasion a small mortar with golf balls.

3F Goex is more reliable for blanks, since I use it for priming pan. 2F Goes is better for charge in BPCR and inlines.

So what is everybody using in their 54, 58 and 62 cal flintlocks?

 

[smokepolehall]

Powder vs price, Goex is or was the cheapest, it has less power than Schuetzen. Keep that in mind when the new Goex comes out. Graf's is Schuetzen powder under Graf's label. Swiss is by far the better of all of them. Its price is a dollar less a lb. than the Sub T7, but it is right there in power & velocity. If you can afford Swiss by all means go for it. If your budget is not that high grab Graf's n your good to go. What i plan on doing is selling my stash of new T7. Then i will order 10 lbs of Swiss 3 f.

 

[SwampBilly]

I watched a YouTube video on black powder last night. They were claiming that the US military still uses about a million pounds a year. Reportedly they use it as a sort of secondary primer in artillery pieces to light the main charge. Very huge granulation I don't remember what they said exactly....

But that does make sense because I was reading some emails that a supplier was sharing with the customers from the goex factory. It was saying that they are resuming production this year but that they had to fulfill military contracts before they made a run of sporting powder.

That was news to me

 

[TDM]

I believe I watched that same video on The Paper Cartridge channel. It was very informative, he has good videos.