Attaching two barrels to each other

[bezoar]

Just how are two barrels attached to eachother?

 

for a side by side, over-under, or swivel? If you are thinking of building a swivel-breech, Dave Waters has a great book that gives all of the schematics, and he has his set up so that you can take the barrels apart as quickly as you would a TC Hawken.

www.swivelbreech.com

I seriously recommend this to anyone wanting to build a swiveler

:m2c:

 

[bezoar]

side by side or over under.

 

[ben_tree]

I am also trying to join two barrels together for a set of barrels I am making for my sxs double.
After looking at my own sxs and many other examples I am still not sure how to join them so any advice much appreciated.
Cheers
Ben

 

joining the two barrels for a SXS is not the hard part . the hard part is aligning them so the will pattern correctly at a give distance this is called regulating .
You must be good at soldering both high and low temp and be able to jig up the barrels parallel, things have to be exact or you will not get satisfactory results

In the book Recreating the double Barreled Muzzle loading shotgun William Brockway goes over the process quite well and if you follow his lead you should be able to build a very nice double .
I just completed one and tested his book as a guide heres the link to

Daisies double
Back to your barrels , the only thing I might change with bills advice in his book concerning joining barrels is the use of a bath to set the barrels in while soldering the ribs on this will keep the stresses down in the barrels if you happen to get carried away with the heat

 

I don't recall what Bill says in his book and i'm too lazy to go upstairs to check it . However, I would recommend brazing the front and back of the barrels once they are regulated. that way when you solder the ribs on there is no chance of them separating. Also, on regulating, I had a thought on regulating barrels a few years back but have never tried it. What I figure is that you make a plug on the lathe that fits snug in the muzzles and has a small hole in the center. Then make plugs to fit snug in the breeches with a hole that will accept a lazer pointer like the ones presenters use. Align the pointers to go through the holes in the muzzles and this should give a perfect bore line. Set your barrels 40 yards from a wall, adjust the barrels until the two pointer point to the same place an braze them together. A third pointer could be used to sight between the barrels where the top rib will go to ensure that the barrels are not convergeing somewhere to the left or right of center

 

BTW, I don't think regulating and joining the barrels is the biggest challenge. It seems to me that making the ribs is a more daunting task. Not sure what would be the best way to go about that.

 

[ben_tree]

Thanks u both for your help, been trying to get a copy of "Recreating the double Barreled Muzzle loading shotgun William Brockway" but the cheapest I have found it in the uk is

 

well if the LB price is the problem maybe we can do some trading :hmm:
im looking for a set of dimascuse twist octigon to round .410 barrels 36 inches long , no choke .

you buy me the barrels and ill buy you the book,,, hows that sound mmmmmmmmmm

no really


putting the barrels together is not the problem though it dose take some time .
first you must mill or grind a spot on both the breach area flat for a couple inches, then lay them on a flat table or bench and take clamps and hold them in place with the muzzle and breach area flat together where you just ground out .

now high temp solder the breeches together and go forward and low temp the muzzles for about an inch . now you regulate the barrels . If your bench was flat they will be parallel. You can uses a laser pointer as Cody has suggested , I used one that was round ,,,, got 2 of them at a gas station rack for next to nothing ,,,, they will role to the bottom of the barrels and lay flat and normally the laser is high enough the beam will not get deflected by the choke .
Then do yourself a favor and do the math, measure the distance to the wall and the distance between the beams both at the muzzle and on the wall . From that you can figure out where they will converge at .
Now once you have that done and 100% sure about all your figures and that the barrels are parallel
Go back and make 2 small spacers to fit between the barrels at even lengths down the barrels .

IE if you take the barrel length and divide by 4 you will come up with 4 points . You have already soldered two of those point so now you will see that at the other 2 points the barrels are not touching. ,, solder in the two spacers at those points, making sure that they are not big enough to get in the way of the ribs when you put them on .

Now remember at this point when ever you apply heat

 

[ben_tree]

Excellent information I known what I am doing for the next day or so !
I have a feeling many more questions may be coming your way.
cheers
Ben

 

well im sure we all here will try to answer them for you ,, if we cant "MAYBEEEE" if we twist his Arm hard enough we could get old Bill Brockway himself to chime in after all we now know he reads this forum
BILL???? hehehehehe lol

 

[doc623]

Have you considered having your local or county library do a search if they do not have the book? for a check out/borrow.

 

[Bill Brockway]

Bezoar, Captchee, and others -

Looks like I am always getting in on these conversations a week or so late.

Bezoar - Assuming you are talking about shotgun barrels, Captchee's instructions are right on the money. If you are talking about two rifle barrels, however, some kind of mechanical anchorage is probably the better way to go.

Captchee - I've never tried the water bath for soldering ribs. It should work well for tinning the barrels, but when you are trying to keep the rib in close to the barrels for soldering, some sort of clamping is required. I'm not sure how well this would work in a container of water.

To start the process, I tin the barrels and the contact surfaces of the ribs with an acid based paste solder. I think it's called SWIF-95, and it is available from Brownells. It's 95% tin content makes it a little stronger than the usual 50/50% lead/tin solder. A word of caution, here. If you don't get all the rust off the surfaces, the solder will not wet the steel. Too much of this and the ribs will come loose again someday in the future. Don't ask me how I know this. File, scrape, sand, but do whatever you have to do to remove all the rust. Even the little specks.

The old method of clamping rib and barrels together was to tie them with a couple wraps of bailing wire, and drive cut (square) nails under the wire to wedge the rib tight against the barrels. For some time now, I have been using spring clamps, with a 4 or 5 inch length of 1/4" rod on the bottom rib, the whole thing pinched together with the clamps. One clamp is needed for each length of rod, making 4 or 5 clamps for a 30" barrel.

I clamp one end of the tinned barrels in my vise, with the other end resting on a wood bench arm that swings out at the right height to match the height of the vise. Butter the previously tinned rib and the barrels with a reasonable amount of the paste solder, and clamp them together with the spring clamps.

Now, remove the first clamp at one end of the barrels, and heat the rib and barrels at that location until the solder melts. Replace that clamp and the 1'4" rod while the solder is still liquid, and remove the next clamp, heating that area until the solder melts. Keep moving, one clamp at a time, until the full length of rib and barrels are soldered together. Let them cool, then turn the barrels over, and repeat the process with the other rib.

It's important to work steadily in one direction only. If you heat a section of rib which is stuck together on both sides of the heat, it will expand and, in so doing, pop right up off the barrels like an inchworm on a cabbage leaf. Don't ask me how I know that, either.

Another caution - don't use too much solder under the ribs. If you use too much solder, it will run down between the barrels and, if it lands on a rusted spot, will form into one or more little balls of solder, which will then run back and forth under the rib, rattling each time you move the gun. Again, don't ask.

I use a standard MAPP/air torch for soldering barrels, and find it quite satisfactory. And, don't forget to neutralize the acid flux by soaking the barrels in a solution of baking soda in water overnight, once after the barrels are tinned, and again after the ribs are attached.

Ben_chee - I started to say that the publisher, George Shumway, had the book for US$40 plus shipping, but I looked on his web site, and couldn't find it. I hope he's not out of them again. Track of the Wolf is still advertising the book for US$36 plus shipping. I found it at Amazon.co.uk for 69GBP, which is not much better than the 73GBP you were quoted. I wonder what makes them so high? Import duties? Overseas shipping? You might try Track of the Wolf.

Hope this helps,

Bill

 

BTW - properly regulated barrels shoot parallel to each other, and neither cross nor spread their shot. That way, there is no "Holding-off" for different ranges. This makes a most delightful gun to hunt with.

 

Bill
i got your book some time back and read it cover to cover ,, thanks very much for your signature ,, very impressed .
i have only done two such barrel sets . i had a hard time as you said getting the first ribs to stay so i went to a local smith who advised me on the bath method ,,,, I did leave out the clamp part , its something like you suggest but its not removed during the soldering . a square piece of stock is laid in 3 places down the barrel and wire is then used to twist clamp it down , the more you tighten the wire the more the square stock holds the rib down. The barrels where then sweated together much in the same fashion as a Plummer would copper pipe

as i said i have only done two SXS sets and the first didnt work to well so i will yield to your experience
..
Also to regulating the barrels
I like my pattern to converge at 25 yard ,, so the pattern is center with the bead , further then that I find the pattern grows so much it really doesn

 

[ben_tree]

Hi Bill,
thanks for the information lots to try and I'm sure my first attempt will take much time and lots of those "Again, don't ask." moments !
I'll let you all know how I get on and will check out Track of the Wolf for your book, I think it probably is import duty that puts the price up.
Thanks again
Ben

 

[Bill Brockway]

Captchee -

I have never seen a flint gun with the breeches recessed like the two John Mantons in Drake's advertisement. Most I have seen have had the flat vertical face of the plugs set back a quarter inch or so toward the center of the barrels. If you study all the pictures of the Mantons, these breeches appear to have been set back much more than that - almost half the diameter of the barrels - with a rounded boss containing the touchhole liner left protruding from the recessed flat. All the more remarkable when you consider they did most of this work with hand tools!

I'm attaching pictures of a couple of my guns with recessed breeches - much less complicated (and less difficult to make) than the Mantons.

Bill

 

Most I have seen have had the flat vertical face of the plugs set back a quarter inch or so toward the center of the barrels. If you study all the pictures of the Mantons, these breeches appear to have been set back much more than that - almost half the diameter of the barrels -
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yes sir thats what i noticed as well, a few of the others there seem to do the same .
also if you notice at a closer look the pivot arm is off set and not centered on the frizzen . This looks to me to push the frizzen in closer to the center of the barrel .
I also noticed that a couple makers screw the pan to the breech .
Unfortunately I cant see if the lock plates have a step in them as well or or if its just the cock thats twisted to line up with the frizzen that

 

[shunka]

Howdy Ben Tree-

The Good Master Brockway's book "Recreating the Double Barrel Muzzleloading Shotgun, second edition,
by William R. Brockway . . .
is available from Track of the Wolf
for $36.00 U.S.
they do take telephone orders and credit cards.

I believe I am going to have to place an order tommorrow for one- far too many questions I have are obviously answered by Mr Brockway in his excellent tome, and it is only fair to reward his efforts by purchasing his book!

PS: Mr Brockway, Capt Chee- Our Grateful thanks to you both!

best regards
shunka