Ballistics and Long Guns

[KenRichard]

Big question: I shoot .50 cal. Kentucky flintlock with tang sights. At 100 yards I can usually put my ticking wrapped round ball in a 3 foot diameter spot, but not consistantly. I have never had a group smaller than this is it typical of the gun or is it something else? My deer shots are about 70-85 yards which is why I am trying to be accurate with the 100 yd. shot.

 

[jethro224]

That is definitely not typical of the gun. Your rifle should be capable of MUCH smaller groups consistently.
Give us more info on your load etc. if possible. The members here should be able to set you on the right path for getting better accuracy from that rifle. :thumbsup:

 

[shootemup]

Hey there Tahli,

Welcome to the forum.

No, I wouldn't consider inconsistent 3 ft groups at 100 yards typical. You should be able to do much better than that.

If I may ask, can you be more specific about your rifle? I know you said it is a .50 flintlock, can I ask who built it? Is it a custom piece, or a production rifle?

What loads are you using? What size ball, what thickness patching and what material, how much powder, what granulation? What sort of lube are you using? Any idea what the rate of twist in your rifling?

We can help you with all of this, we just need a little more information. We don't have to have all of that, but whatever you can provide will be helpful.

:hatsoff:
Spot

 

[Zonie]

As some wise man said, "You must learn to walk before you can run."

This is true with muzzleloading rifles too and for that reason I suggest that you start your shooting at a range of about 25 yards. You should be able to keep your shots inside of a 1 1/2 inch circle at that distance. If you can't do that then this is the range to use to start finding out exactly what powder load/ball size/patch thickness your gun likes.
Notice I said "your gun likes". Each one of these rifles is different and each one has its own loads that work well with them.

If you can keep your shots in a 1 1/2" circle at 25 yards move the target to 50 yards.
This is the distance where the fine tuning to the powder load, the patch thickness, the lubrication and sometimes the ball size is done.

Before your finished at this range your shots should easily be able to stay inside a 4 inch circle.

Rather than setting your target at 100 yards, if your range will let you, set the target at 75 yards to do your final tuning.
By the time you've worked your way out to this range you should be getting to know your gun real well. This is important because any small thing that you didn't understand when you started that caused your 3 foot groups will probably have been worked out by now so this is the distance you should be starting to find out what hunting load works best. Most .50's like something in the 80 grain area with a patched roundball and at this 75 yard range they will be very capable of knocking down a deer with this load.

Don't take my load as being the best though. As I said, each gun is different and yours may work best with a 90 or 100 grain load. Then it may not work at all with those hot loads.
Only shooting will give you the real answer.

 

[Otter]

At 100 yards I can usually put my ticking wrapped round ball in a 3 foot diameter spot, but not consistantly.

Like Zonie said . . . start at 25 yards until you get consistantly good groups, then start stretching it out. I have shot 4" 3-shot groups consistently offhand at 100 yards in the past (I'm sure I can't do that now, though) with an off the shelf .54 cal GPR kit gun, so a 36" group is not typical. Let us here know what loads/ball/patch combos you are using, as well as what powder, and I'm sure you'll get some good directions as to what to try next.

 

[tg]

I would start from scratch and recheck everything most smoothnores can shoot a group as good or better than that, make sure the sights aretight I would even try primitive open sights and start at 25 yds and work your way out. make sure the powder measureing device is sound and you are geeting consistant loads, same for patch thickness and type/mix of lube is the same (mix and amount used) shoot off a good bench rest, check barrel for fit/loosenes in stock start with a good snug load but nor one that needs to be pounded all the way down, check the twist of the rifleing to see if it is fast or slow you may have a bullet barrel possibly by mistake. use real BP for main charge and prime rather than duplex loads in the bore, try 3f to start usually 70-90 grains is good for a .50, wipe after every shot then try wiping after 5 shots to see if there is any difference, this and what others have offered should get you down at least to 6"-10" in short time then can be refined. Good luck and keep the powder burning, do not get discouraged it will work out OK in the end and remember to keep good notes on everything you do and all changes no matter how small.

 

[russecv58]

i shoot PRB, 50 grains 3f in my CVA Hawken 50cal (1-66 twist) and can keep it inside of 2" @ 100 yards pretty consistently, for hunting i bump it up to 70 grains 3f, although that raises the point of impact by about an inch. like everyone else said, you should be able to do atleast 4" groups. take your time, keep it consistent, and good luck :v

 

What everyone has mentioned is good, but lets backup a bit. First you mentioned a .50 cal. flintlock. second, what powder, patch and ball size are you using. third what is the barrel twist. You need a good tight, well lubed patch/ball combo. For .50 cal. 1 in 66 is best, while 1 in 48 is ok and needs some work to fine tune your loading. If you are not using real black powder you will have trouble with fast ignition if at all with some of the subs. Your best bet is to start at 25 yards, like has been said, and benched. With a .50 start at 60 grains of FFFG, or 70 of FFG. Shoot three to five shot groups, and the tightest patch/ball combo you can load. .490, with an 18/20 thou. patch may work, but a .395 with a .12 to 15 thousandths may be better. Its all a matter of trial and error, and each gun is different. Another thought is to mic. the barrel to see what your 50's bore really is, in order to give you a starting point.

Bill

 

[KenRichard]

Let's see; Tradition's kit, built by me; modified with a tang mount peepsight that is foldable to use the v-notch sight for short range. At 50 yards it shoots consistantly four inches right. use a 490 ball with assorted patches. my best results are with a sabot type plastic (same 490 ball) 100 yards it doesn't seem to matter what I use as patch, lube is recommendation of local gun shop: Crisco use the same to seal the cylinders of my .36 Navy revolver. At 30 yards I get a 1 inch group with the pistol. Could the problem be with the peep sight? Could it be jiggling out of place on me?

 

[Josh Smith]

Are you sure the ball is catching the spin? Does the rifle require effort to load?

An easy way to check on the tangent sight is to not use it and see if your groups improve.

I would stop using sabots; you don't have the twist for it, though it does make me wonder if the patches are sufficiently tight, as you're building more pressure with a heavier projectile than with a loosely patched ball.

What do your spent patches look like?

1. Stop using the peep sight for now.

2. Collect spent patches, scan or take pics of 'em, and post those pics here.

This will help us a lot.

Josh

 

[airmansteve]

If the problem is in the sight mount, it should be pretty obvious. Try moving both sights on their bases. Of course both should have no movement at all. If your groups are 36 inches, I would think that considerable movement would be present in the sight bases, if that is the cause of your problem. Good luck!

 

[hunts4deer]

Is the barrel properly cleaned?

Start with 70 grains of FFFG or FFG.

Lube your patches in advance of your shooting session, getting the lube to soak into the cloth. Use good quality patches, NOT an old t-shirt, for example.

Lay the patch over the opening of the barrel, set the ball on top with the sprue facing up (if it has a sprue). You should be able to pop the ball into the barrel with very firm thumb pressure or with the ramrod without a lot of difficulty. If it goes in real easy the ball/patch combination is way too loose. Run the ball down with the ramrod. If it goes down with very light pressure it is too loose. If it is hard enough that you really need to bear down it is probably too tight. Adjust the patch choice until you get one that goes down with moderate pressure. Never double the patch to get a tighter fit; choose a different material.

Make sure you seat the ball down firmly on the powder and use the same amount of pressure each time. Put a pencil mark on the ramrod so you can visually check consistent bullet seating.

Nearly fill the pan with powder. You should get very fast ignition without much delay at all.

Shoot at 50 yards from a firm bench rest position, not off hand standing. Have someone watch your face as you shoot to make sure you aren't flinching at the last moment.

Aim at the exact same spot for five shots without making any sight adjustment. At the very worst, all shots should be inside of a paper plate at 50 yards with a rifle with front and rear sights. Hopefully they will be inside a tennis ball at that range if you're being consistent.

Hope this is helpful. Everything I have said is a good start, but there are many other ways to do it and others will certainly have their preferred methods.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Just an afterthought as to why you are having such lousy accuracy at 100 yds.

I had a student who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 30 yards with a handgun, and no matter what I told him, he didn't improve. A couple of days later, he stopped me on the street, and asked me, " Which is the front sight? The one with the notch in it, or that blade out at the muzzle?" He admitted that instead of focusing on the Front Sight, he had been focusing instead at the rear sight.

His shooting improved immediately.

"Front sight, Front sight, Front sight........"

is the mantra when shooting open sights. That also means don't be looking over the front sight to peak at the target, either. Both the rear sight, and the target should appear "fuzzy" with only the front sight clearly seen by your eye.


There is NOTHING natural about shooting a firearm. :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[jan buck]

i agree. shooting form as well as learning trigger squeeze are essential to shooting great groups. i learned along time ago to focus on the front sight. oh yeah, the rear sight is there and you see it but not really if you get what i'm saying.
not ripping on flintlocks, but practice with a caplock may help. correct breathing also helps in steadying for the shot. focus the front sight on a spot on the target and take in air let half out and hold then squeeze the trigger. blam! bullseye. :thumbsup:

 

[hanshi]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: