Bannock 1832

[Tallswife]

LOL!

 

[KingofDerby]

I have used ash in the dough and it does work...no where near as good as baking powder, but still...

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Can you clarify?
Ashes added to the mix or when the dough is cooked in hot ashes?

You add "white" wood ashes to flour, and it is supposed to work like baking soda. You will probably need some sort of acid to get it to work, like vinegar.

"Substitute for Baking Soda. - Take the white of wood ashes, same quantity as you would use of soda, and mix dry with the flour. It makes bread rise the same as soda, and you can't tell the difference. The best ashes are those of hickory, dogwood, sugar maple, and corncobs; but the ashes of beech, ash, buckeye, balsam poplar, and yellow poplar are also good."
Horace Kephart, Camping and Woodcraft, V.1 p. 354

LD

 

[BillinOregon]

Lovely recipe, Tallswife.

 

[crockett]

I'll have to try it- wonder if any health hazard? Sort of odd using wood ash but on the other hand baking powder is supposed to have ground up aluminium.
When they say a substitute for baking SODA- that's why you need an acid like vinegar?

 

[Black Hand]

I'll have to try it- wonder if any health hazard?

No...
Well, maybe...if you were to collect up bucketfuls of ash, leach rainwater through it, boil to concentrate the residue and then drink the liquid.

Sort of odd using wood ash but on the other hand baking powder is supposed to have ground up aluminium.

Where are you getting this information? Baking soda is pure Sodium bicarbonate. Baking powder may contain Sodium Aluminum Sulfate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_aluminium_sulfate), but this is not the same as Aluminum metal. After all, Salt contains Sodium, which in its metallic form is a reactive/explosive metal, but as part of Sodium chloride, is not the same thing.

This is fear-mongering on the scale of "Aluminum" in deodorants causing cancer. Let me get my Aluminum foil hat...

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yes..., the original quick leaven was Soda Ash (Sodium Carbonate) or Pearl Ash (Potassium Carbonate)...the pearl ash process was patented in 1790, and mea culpa :redface: for not listing it before.

Both soda or peal ash, and plain ashes, are alkaline, so when you add something acid, the reaction takes place and bubbles form and you get your leavening process.

IF you use Baking Soda alone, (or Soda Ash, Pearl Ash or ashes) be aware that you use it sparingly. Although Kephart wrote "as you would use soda" he doesn't mention that soda alone, (or any of the other substitutes) doesn't work like baking powder. The rise is noticeably less than with baking powder..., and I've seen a lot of recipes that call for soda-bread with baking soda AND baking powder, combined. The ratio of soda to powder can be 1:1 or as high as 1:3..., meaning 1 teaspoon of baking soda, to as much as 1 tablespoon of baking powder...plus the acid is always from buttermilk. Even in the recipes without baking powder, the amount of soda for four cups of flour is always 1 TEASPOON or less.

Why all the stress about the soda? I've found by experiment, that if you increase the Baking Soda to try and get baking powder results, you get a nice, bitter biscuit. Apparently, mixing too much alkaline into the batter without adjusting the acid to consume it...allows the remaining alkaline to react with the fat..., that fat being plain lard, bacon grease, veg shortening, or olive oil..., doesn't matter..., and alkaline with fat plus heat gives you proto-soap :barf: . Hence the bitterness. :nono:

Here's an interesting link about Soda Bread for those interested.
Society for The Preservation of Irish Soda Bread

LD

 

[coloradoclyde]

Why soda bread in the first place?
Why not yeast risen bread or sour dough?
How did it "rise" (pardon the pun) in popularity?

I understand that it was invented by someone allergic to yeast......but that doesn't explain its widespread use. :hmm:

 

[Nativearizonan]

Why soda bread in the first place?
Why not yeast risen bread or sour dough?
How did it "rise" (pardon the pun) in popularity?

I understand that it was invented by someone allergic to yeast......but that doesn't explain its widespread use. :hmm:

Yeast takes two things that soda doesn't: Time and proper temperature. Non yeast breads made with baking soda or baking powder are also called quick breads, for a reason. You can make them quick, which often means the difference between eating soft risen bread and eating hard tack. Also, if camping in cool or cold weather, some kind of heat must be provided for yeast to rise; not so with quick breads, which will give you soft bread no matter what the ambient temperature.

Eventually, though, quick breads, such as biscuits or soda bread became ingrained in various cultures, to where people now identify with them and make them to enjoy as well as to celebrate their heritage. Variety is the spice of life.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

"Quick" sure is the word for them...,

I've made bread with trub (the yeast that has settled to the bottom of a fermenter) from beer [ale] making, just as it was done before modern bread-making yeast.

It takes about 12 hours to get the bread to rise, and the temps have to stay below 70 degrees as ale yeast dies off at higher temps. So if you want to bake at 7 A.M. you must finish the dough and it goes into the bowl, covered with a towel, at 7 p.m. I've tried to shorten the time, by taking "active" yeast off the top of a fermenter, and the time lag was the same, and even when not using anything but partially fermented beer and active ale yeast, no additional water...12 hours

LD

 

[coloradoclyde]

I've made bread with trub

It makes great pizza.... :thumbsup:

 

[coloradoclyde]

Why soda bread in the first place?
Why not yeast risen bread or sour dough?
How did it "rise" (pardon the pun) in popularity?

I understand that it was invented by someone allergic to yeast......but that doesn't explain its widespread use. :hmm:

Yeast takes two things that soda doesn't: Time and proper temperature. Non yeast breads made with baking soda or baking powder are also called quick breads, for a reason. You can make them quick, which often means the difference between eating soft risen bread and eating hard tack. Also, if camping in cool or cold weather, some kind of heat must be provided for yeast to rise; not so with quick breads, which will give you soft bread no matter what the ambient temperature.

Eventually, though, quick breads, such as biscuits or soda bread became ingrained in various cultures, to where people now identify with them and make them to enjoy as well as to celebrate their heritage. Variety is the spice of life.

Good point!... :thumbsup:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

In response to Loyalist Dave

Quote:

I've made bread with trub

It makes great pizza.... :thumbsup:

YES IT DOES, and it makes pretty tasty bread too.

Alas, in the age of the "rapid rise" and generic bread yeast, which were developed, and are made to impart very little flavor because the yeast producers don't know what style of bread is being made..., we've lost the local yeast that was once used for both the bread and the local ale..., and which made a great contribution to the flavor of the bread just as it did the ale.

All you folks out there who make "artisan bread" I suggest you try such with an ale yeast, and note the flavor. After that and after you've worked out the "kinks" with using brewing yeast for bread, then you could try capturing and cultivating a local, wild, ale yeast for the purpose.

LD

 

[coloradoclyde]

I want to try using gyle.. it should work better than trub, I think.

 

[crockett]

That aluminum- I always wondered whether it was hype, this "Aluminum Free baking powder. Yes, I should have noted the aluminum is changed into the sulfate.
On the sour dough- I know it dates back far into history but I haven't read anything of it being used by mountain men, etc.- it seems the first references are the gold miners or "49er's". On the ash biscuits, if you need some acid to make it work...what would be used?

 

[coloradoclyde]

Vinegar, or butter milk come to mind....

Both are products of lactic-acid bacteria fermentation...

Of course you could just mix baking soda and tartaric acid (cream of tartar) together and make baking powder.

 

[Black Hand]

Can't confirm accuracy - informational: http://www.world-foodhistory.com/2011/08/leavened-bread-in-ancient-egypt.html http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/bread.htm http://forward.com/articles/10411/leavened-or-unleavened-a-history/

 

[coloradoclyde]

Now I'm confused....
Are we talking about leavened bread, unleavened bread, chemical leavened bread or bannock.

 

[Black Hand]

There appeared to be a question as to when yeast leavening (with/without sourdough) came about...

 

[coloradoclyde]

Natural leavening from yeast or bacteria goes back at least 10,000 years.....Chemical leavening is another story....

IMO, steam also leavens bread....