Bannock 1832

[Loyalist Dave]

A sourdough method was employed for leavened bread. Remnants of a previous batch of dough or barn from a batch of beer was mixed with new dough and allowed to ferment or sour overnight.

Aye, there's the rub....,

Archaeologists assuming something instead of investigation. I have asked many times "How" they knew that the Egyptians ate sour-dough, and I get the above answer, just as it appears in the link. Well, I've made bread with ale yeast, which is what they would've used to leaven their bread (especially in the hot temperatures of the desert). And YES it does have to sit overnight, and NO it doesn't automatically go sour. In fact I've made a sponge with the ale yeast, and kept it in a crock on the counter and once it did sour, and I kept it almost a year, but alas I got distracted. Two more attempts, and I could make bread, but the sponge didn't sour.

So I WISH they'd stop assuming and actually do some testing....maybe see if any of the mummified breads have the right bacteria to sour bread, and then make sure it was sour before baking, and not after it sat on the shelves in the tomb!

:shake:

LD

 

[coloradoclyde]

Well, I've made bread with ale yeast, which is what they would've used to leaven their bread (especially in the hot temperatures of the desert). And YES it does have to sit overnight, and NO it doesn't automatically go sour. In fact I've made a sponge with the ale yeast, and kept it in a crock on the counter and once it did sour, and I kept it almost a year, but alas I got distracted. Two more attempts, and I could make bread, but the sponge didn't sour.

But you started with a purified ale strain.....and once established, yeast tends to out compete it's rivals....

In my opinion, sourdough vs. regular bread depends a lot on the method of production....
If the bread was spontaneously fermented then it was most likely sourdough...but if they baked bread every day and kept reusing yeast then the stain would likely purify itself.

 

[Black Hand]

So I WISH they'd stop assuming and actually do some testing....maybe see if any of the mummified breads have the right bacteria to sour bread, and then make sure it was sour before baking, and not after it sat on the shelves in the tomb!

Souring bacteria would vary by geography.
Distinguishing bacteria present in the dough vs. those that made their way into the bread after baking or while in the tomb could be difficult, especially with the 4000-6000 years of "storage".

 

[Black Hand]

The first evidence of baking of leavened dough are dated at around 1500 BC by mural Egyptian paintings (von Stokar, 1956), although sour-dough bread was already part of the European diet 5000 years ago (Wahren, 1985). https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222561414_Lactobacilli_in_sourdough_fermentation

 

[coloradoclyde]

There is one thing we are overlooking....
Antibiotics kill lactic acid producing bacteria but not yeasts...
The antibiotic tetracycline accumulates in the bones and can be used as a marker...It was also found in high levels in mummies....It was suspected that it came from the clay vessels they stored beer in.
Incidentally many antibiotics (about 80%) are derived from soil bacteria, sourced from the genus Streptomyces,

 

[Black Hand]

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38990966/...ancient-nubians-drank-beer-laced-antibiotics/
http://frjohnpeck.com/the-ancient-egyptians-invented-antibiotics/

 

[KingofDerby]

I'll have to try it- wonder if any health hazard?

Some wood ash can be a hazard... stick to hard woods... don't use yew...dunno, just if it's a wood you wouldn't eat, should be fine.

 

[coloradoclyde]

There is no evidence that I see that see that indicates the bread or beer was sour....only conjecture....
What I do know is that, continual use, repetition of process and antibiotics will purify a yeast strain....and it will adapt to the process.
Their method of grain storage/malting likely accounted for the introduction Streptomyces....and created an agreeable flavor..
We know from malting today that flavor and efficiency do not go "hand in hand".

I'm just guessing.....but if they were malting or storing grain in earthen pits...the same pits over and over, they likely, were unknowingly cultivating Streptomyces....

It would be a great "experimental archaeology" project.....the hard part would be recreating the same soil conditions as thousands of years ago...

 

[Black Hand]

It is fairly safe to say the evidence we do have suggests the possibility of soured products made from grains. Here is a modern example: http://www.nourishingdays.com/2012/01/fermented-grains-the-perpetual-soured-porridge-pot/

Fermentation is a natural process that is accomplished by any number of organisms converting sugars to other products (ethanol being only one).

Streptomyces are common on soil, so it isn't a stretch to believe they were present on the surfaces of grains even without "special" storage or treatment. Without the knowledge of modern sterilization techniques, someone living in a stone-copper-bronze age society would have no idea how to eliminate extraneous bacterial/fungal colonization and these processes would happen without much intervention. Malting merely facilitated the process by converting starch to sugars that were available for bacterial/fungal metabolism.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Streptomyces are common on soil, so it isn't a stretch to believe they were present on the surfaces of grains even without "special" storage or treatment.

I'm not aware of Streptomyces being naturally present on the surface of grains....

Do you have a reference?

If I remember correctly without looking it up, Streptomyces lives in soil and breaks down organic matter like leaves and such...

Both Streptomyces and yeast are fungi.

 

[coloradoclyde]

My own hypothesis is that Streptomyces was introduced by underground/earthen malting...it seems logical because it mimics growing/sprouting conditions....

If I recall correctly, there was archeological evidence of similar techniques in Scotland 5000 years ago......or something to that affect.

 

[Black Hand]

Streptomyces are common on soil, so it isn't a stretch to believe they were present on the surfaces of grains even without "special" storage or treatment.

I'm not aware of Streptomyces being naturally present on the surface of grains....

Do you have a reference?

If I remember correctly without looking it up, Streptomyces lives in soil and breaks down organic matter like leaves and such...

Both Streptomyces and yeast are fungi.

The threshing and winnowing process would put grain and soil in close proximity. https://www.bing.com/images/search...+&+winnowing+garin+in+ancient+egypt&FORM=IGRE

BTW - Streptomyces are filamentous Gram-positive bacteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streptomyces). Similar in morphology to certain fungi with respect to filamentous appearance and spore formation.

 

[coloradoclyde]

BTW - Streptomyces are filamentous Gram-positive bacteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streptomyces). Similar in morphology to certain fungi with respect to filamentous appearance and spore formation.

Your right...I was thinking of something else...

Thanks for the clarification...

 

[coloradoclyde]

The threshing and winnowing process would put grain and soil in close proximity.

The winnowing and threshing process has been virtually unchanged for millennia...If this was the case we would see tetracycline bone evidence everywhere.....we don't.

I'm still think it is the result of localized cultivation due to process....Nothing else explains it being found only in certain mummies and in high concentrations...
It has to be process related.

 

[Black Hand]

The threshing and winnowing process would put grain and soil in close proximity.

The winnowing and threshing process has been virtually unchanged for millennia...If this was the case we would see tetracycline bone evidence everywhere.....we don't.

I'm still think it is the result of localized cultivation due to process....Nothing else explains it being found only in certain mummies and in high concentrations...
It has to be process related.

It would greatly depend upon whether the particular Streptomyces species (over 500 are known) was capable of producing tetracycline and where said microbe was found.

 

[coloradoclyde]

The threshing and winnowing process would put grain and soil in close proximity.

The winnowing and threshing process has been virtually unchanged for millennia...If this was the case we would see tetracycline bone evidence everywhere.....we don't.

I'm still think it is the result of localized cultivation due to process....Nothing else explains it being found only in certain mummies and in high concentrations...
It has to be process related.

It would greatly depend upon whether the particular Streptomyces species (over 500 are known) was capable of producing tetracycline and where said microbe was found.

Yes!....I think that supports what I'm saying....

 

[coloradoclyde]

Here is a fascinating read....
https://books.google.no/books?id=Vj7A9jJrZP0C&pg=PA552&lpg=PA552&dq=egyptian+malting&source=bl&ots=zt5YmnwFIz&sig=NAP7_tfDovHNPRaiWTieB8Nbrsg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKyIHmn-3SAhUElSwKHXPoBZcQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20malting&f=false

 

[Black Hand]

Lactobacilli are present in the gut of humans and animals. Taken together with ambient wild yeast used for the fermentation of beer in the ancient world, this suggests sourdough is a possibility.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I don't discount sourdough as a possibility...But! The Egyptians brewed on large scales...Large scale brewing will eliminate lactobacilli and purify the yeast strain....
There is archeological evidence of this...
The Egyptians made bread from malt...Lactobacilli can grow on malt during the malting process (today we call this acid malt) It can leave a sour taste in the beer but the bacteria does not survive the boiling process and is not present during fermentation without being re-inoculated.

So, yes the bread could have been a "sour dough" without live lactic acid producing bacteria.

 

[Black Hand]

Contemplate their standards of cleanliness - no way to sterilize containers. Spontaneous re-inoculation wouldn't be out of the question or even unlikely...

Also, the impression I got was the "beer" at the time was more of a thin gruel that was fermented rather than what we know today (or even in the Middle Ages).