Bare balls in the backwoods

[Eterry]

I dry balled once and pulled the nipple and trickled a very small amount of ffg in the bolster. The gun went pop, the ball hit a cross tie and bounced off. I doubt if i had 2 grains in the bolster. Point being it takes a very small amount of powder to clear the barrel. Point of reference, a 22 LR case holds about 5grs of fffg.

I don't think folks in the 1700s used cloth for much except wearing. It was too pricey. Moss, grass, wasp nests, etc could be used in a smoothbore.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I think it's because they observed that with a very closely fit bare ball, they were more accurate than when they used a patch. Without the symmetrical grooves in the barrel, the patch doesn't fold the say way twice in a row.



Remember that the rifles with the tight fitting, patched ball, only had wooden rammers..., So if the riflemen could pull that ball, so could the smoothbore fellows. You have to drill into the ball itself. Snagging the patching cloth with a worm is just going to get the worm stuck in the barrel too, or perhaps even the whole ramrod.



As others have written, IF you dry-ball the piece, there is enough room to put powder into the breech via the touch hole, and pop out the projectile. It's very similar in sound to a low powered air rifle when this is done..., OR you took the piece along with you, and had to store it until you got hold of the right tool to remove the stuck ball. Being SOL is not a new situation to be found within.

LD

Good luck drilling a ball out without a ball puller screw. There might not be enough room in a flat bottomed breech for powder. Patent breeches I know there is. Never tried it, don't really care too. Also I personally don't think any serious backwoodsman could afford to have a non-functioning gun for any length of time. A load that could be easily removed if need be I think was important.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I dry balled once and pulled the nipple and trickled a very small amount of ffg in the bolster. The gun went pop, the ball hit a cross tie and bounced off. I doubt if i had 2 grains in the bolster. Point being it takes a very small amount of powder to clear the barrel. Point of reference, a 22 LR case holds about 5grs of fffg.

I don't think folks in the 1700s used cloth for much except wearing. It was too pricey. Moss, grass, wasp nests, etc could be used in a smoothbore.

But what of traditional guns that did not have a removable nipple?

 

[Zonie]

But what of traditional guns that did not have a removable nipple?

You must be thinking of a flintlock. All of the percussion lock guns have removable nipples. They are an expendable item.

In the case of a flintlock, you work some black powder down thru the vent hole in the side of the barrel. With a couple of grains of powder worked thru the vent hole, priming and firing the gun will usually ignite the powder that was worked into the barrel and when it fires, the ball or load of shot will usually be blown out.
With a shot load, it sometimes takes a bit more powder behind the load to blow it out because there is more gas leakage past the fiber wads and there is more mass to move than would be the case with a roundball load.

 

[Runewolf1973]

You must be thinking of a flintlock. All of the percussion lock guns have removable nipples. They are an expendable item.

In the case of a flintlock, you work some black powder down thru the vent hole in the side of the barrel. With a couple of grains of powder worked thru the vent hole, priming and firing the gun will usually ignite the powder that was worked into the barrel and when it fires, the ball or load of shot will usually be blown out.
With a shot load, it sometimes takes a bit more powder behind the load to blow it out because there is more gas leakage past the fiber wads and there is more mass to move than would be the case with a roundball load.

Yes flintlock. I have used this method on my Pedersoli, but those have patent breeches where the ball can only get shoved down so far and it leaves a cavity for the powder to get pushed in through the vent hole. My trade gun does not have that cavity. The ball would get shoved right to the very bottom of the breech where you can feel it if you were to stick a vent pick in there. Have you actually tried this technique on a non-patent breech gun? If I can't get the vent pick to even go in there, how am I going to get powder in there?

 

[Zonie]

Most of my flintlocks have a vent that goes directly thru the side of the barrel directly into the bore. Yes, the patched ball will be down there by the vent but usually there is enough room in the area to work some new powder thru so it ends up under the ball.
For instance, I locate a vent liner with 1/4" threads 5/32" (.156") above the face of the breech plug. That gives the liner threads a 1/32" clearance to the breech plug face.
If a .45 caliber ball was rammed down hard against the breech plug, it will be fitting the inside of the barrel .225" above the breech plug face. That puts the tight spot .069" above the vent liner. A .50 caliber ball will have it's tight spot .250 above the breech plug which makes it .094 above the vent hole.
The .45 caliber gun will need some slow, persistent work to get the powder under the ball but it can be done.
I have done this so I know it does work.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Most of my flintlocks have a vent that goes directly thru the side of the barrel directly into the bore. Yes, the patched ball will be down there by the vent but usually there is enough room in the area to work some new powder thru so it ends up under the ball.
For instance, I locate a vent liner with 1/4" threads 5/32" (.156") above the face of the breech plug. That gives the liner threads a 1/32" clearance to the breech plug face.
If a .45 caliber ball was rammed down hard against the breech plug, it will be fitting the inside of the barrel .225" above the breech plug face. That puts the tight spot .069" above the vent liner. A .50 caliber ball will have it's tight spot .250 above the breech plug which makes it .094 above the vent hole.
The .45 caliber gun will need some slow, persistent work to get the powder under the ball but it can be done.
I have done this so I know it does work.

That's good to know. Thank you!

 

[Eterry]

Pretty much what Zonie said. My point was, it takes a very small amount of powder to get the ball down the barrel. It might take some time, but unless the frontiersman was facing danger time was not something he was short of.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Good luck drilling a ball out without a ball puller screw. There might not be enough room in a flat bottomed breech for powder. Patent breeches I know there is. Never tried it, don't really care too. Also I personally don't think any serious backwoodsman could afford to have a non-functioning gun for any length of time. A load that could be easily removed if need be I think was important.

So again, if all that is true, then HOW did the riflemen cope when they loaded without powder under the patched ball, or when they got trapped in such a huge rain storm the powder got wet inside the rifle? What if they fell into the creek or the rifle went overboard and was retrieved? So far, "serious backwoodsmen" of the English colonies seemed to carry a lot of rifles, not smoothbores. At least if store inventories are a clue.

LD

 

[Runewolf1973]

So again, if all that is true, then HOW did the riflemen cope when they loaded without powder under the patched ball, or when they got trapped in such a huge rain storm the powder got wet inside the rifle? What if they fell into the creek or the rifle went overboard and was retrieved? So far, "serious backwoodsmen" of the English colonies seemed to carry a lot of rifles, not smoothbores. At least if store inventories are a clue.

LD

I was under the impression that most rifles loading rods were equipped with threaded ends to attach things like ball pullers or jags.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I was under the impression that most rifles loading rods were equipped with threaded ends to attach things like ball pullers or jags.

Then so would the ramrods on smoothbores, IF the loads they were using needed such. IF you put a bare ball down the barrel and no powder, you simply invert the barrel, muzzle down, and put a piece of leather or wood on the ground and a few light bounces and the ball will drop free.

LD

 

[Grenadier1758]

On one of notorious Woods Walks at Fort de Chartres, at one of the stations, one of the team was asked to unload his firearm. The one selected had a Fusil de Chasse loaded with bare ball and held in place with tow. He simply turned the fusil muzzle down, a couple of shakes and the ball was on the ground.

 

[Runewolf1973]

On one of notorious Woods Walks at Fort de Chartres, at one of the stations, one of the team was asked to unload his firearm. The one selected had a Fusil de Chasse loaded with bare ball and held in place with tow. He simply turned the fusil muzzle down, a couple of shakes and the ball was on the ground.

That would be a really handy thing out in the woods. A lot less fiddling around than trying to push a few grains of powder into the touchhole of a gun, or trying to remove a breech plug. Maybe breech plugs were less tight back then....but things could still get seized.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Pretty much what Zonie said. My point was, it takes a very small amount of powder to get the ball down the barrel. It might take some time, but unless the frontiersman was facing danger time was not something he was short of.

And what if there was powder already in the barrel, but it had gotten wet? What is pushing a few grains into the touch hole going to do then?

Edit: I found out that you can ignite wet powder. This hobby is super interesting. Learning something new every day.

 

[George]

It appears that the most use of a "spring" worm is to hold tow for cleaning and not for removing a ball? Unless held in place with wadding only?

[Mea culpa, I posted this in the wrong thread, will repeat here and hope it causes no problems.]

I've been using a plain wooden ramrod with no ferrule for several years with my smoothbore. So far I haven't dry-balled, but I know that if/when I do I'll just have to take the gun home. Otherwise I've had no problems. I use a worm and tow to clean in the field, it a good method. I have used cloth with the worm, simply punched the end through the cloth, no problem.

I've occasionally wanted to change from shot to ball or visa versa, or to salvage the shot/ball and tow at the end of the day, and have used the worm to pull the tow wads, likewise, no trouble. Not being a fan of anything being lost down the barrel, I took the precaution of carving screw threads on the end of my ramrod to match the worm, and that has worked very well. It stands up to a pretty hefty tug.

Spence

 

[Runewolf1973]

[Mea culpa, I posted this in the wrong thread, will repeat here and hope it causes no problems.]

I've been using a plain wooden ramrod with no ferrule for several years with my smoothbore. So far I haven't dry-balled, but I know that if/when I do I'll just have to take the gun home. Otherwise I've had no problems. I use a worm and tow to clean in the field, it a good method. I have used cloth with the worm, simply punched the end through the cloth, no problem.

I've occasionally wanted to change from shot to ball or visa versa, or to salvage the shot/ball and tow at the end of the day, and have used the worm to pull the tow wads, likewise, no trouble. Not being a fan of anything being lost down the barrel, I took the precaution of carving screw threads on the end of my ramrod to match the worm, and that has worked very well. It stands up to a pretty hefty tug.
View attachment 33241
View attachment 33242

Spence

I like that idea. So those are made of spring tempered steel? The sharp end doesn't scratch the bore inside?

 

[George]

And what if there was powder already in the barrel, but it had gotten wet? What is pushing a few grains into the touch hole going to do then?

Wet powder in the barrel can be ignited by pushing dry powder through the touchhole. I experimented with that and learned something useful.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/burning-wet-bp.88104/#post-1118352
Spence

 

[Runewolf1973]

Wet powder in the barrel can be ignited by pushing dry powder through the touchhole. I experimented with that and learned something useful.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/burning-wet-bp.88104/#post-1118352
Spence

Wow! That is really interesting and good to know. Thanks.

 

[George]

I like that idea. So those are made of spring tempered steel? The sharp end doesn't scratch the bore inside?

Mine are stiff but can be bent cold with some effort, not totally springy. The point can't get at the bore, no problem, there.

Spence

 

[Eterry]

And what if there was powder already in the barrel, but it had gotten wet? What is pushing a few grains into the touch hole going to do then?

Edit: I found out that you can ignite wet powder. This hobby is super interesting. Learning something new every day.

Honestly, I have never had my muzzle loader submerged in water, i never thought you could get wet powder to ignite, but according to Spence, you can. That's great info to have.