Barrel cleaning issue

[user 28522]

I’m not sure what‘s causing this so I’ll try and lay it out.
This issue all started this year with the three rifles I have shot. Lyman GPR 50 cal, Pedersoli Rocky Hawken 50 cal, and a Pedersoli Pennsylvania 45 cal. Each appear to clean up with tap water, either hot or warm is what I have used in the past without issue. I plunge the barrel with a cleaning rod with the appropriate size jag and snug fitting patches. Usually I do change the water so I can see when the barrel is no longer getting dark discharge from the nipple port. In the case of the Pennsylvania I use a hose system that replaces the nipple to plunge the water back and forth in the barrel.
The issue I’m having is the following day after shooting I run a patch with WD40 with a tight patch and you can feel tight spots and the patch comes out with black streaks, no rust just black. I end up using JB bore paste which comes out with a BLACK patch. The Pedersoli Hawken cleans up the easiest of the three but still can’t figure out why. Hoppes patch lube and bore cleaner seems to work pretty good when applied to a bore brush, I have been wrapping a patch around the brush and applying a couple drops to the patch.
At first I thought it might be the powder because I got some from another shooter that has stopped shooting, the cans are all sealed but I can’t say for sure how they were stored. I did some searching here and many say powder doesn’t deteriorate so I guess that can be ruled out. My load in the Hawken is 50 grains of FF with either store bought patches or my own cut patches, I have been using Lehigh Valley Lube in all three rifles. One range trip I used water with a few drops of Dawn and experienced the same issue when i cleaned it up. I always clean upon returning home from the range which is an hour ride.
Another sign that something is afoul is the accuracy is dropping off about a third of the way thru a shooting session, I have tried wiping between shots and still get crazy fliers that are 4” or more from the group.
If you have any suggestions I would be will to listen and give them a try.

Longone

 

[Grenadier1758]

I am going to speculate that you are suffering from a build up of black powder fouling in the bore. It has gotten crusty enough that you are getting clear water when you use the flushing method to clean the bore. I see that you have used JB Bore Paste and still get the black soiling of the patch. Since you are using patched round balls with the Lehigh Valley Lube, you should not be experiencing leading of the bore. You are going to need to do more aggressive brushing with the bore brush. Try some brake cleaner with a cleaning patch on the bore brush. Since accuracy is dropping off during the shooting session, the fouling is building up. Are the patched round ball loads getting harder to load during the session?

 

[user 28522]

Any increase in loading effort would be minimal at best, but I did notice yesterday when ramming the ball, it would go and then stop 4”-6” needing more effort to get down the bore. Now that you throw that out there it is probably riding thru a buildup or tight spot. My question is why the fouling build up becoming so stubborn?
This was also an issue this summer when it was close to 90*.

 

[Woody Morgan]

Did this start after the powder change? Not all ffg is the same.

wm

 

[user 28522]

I believe I was using it earlier this year, all powder is Goex FF in the newer? plastic bottles.

 

[Travis186]

This is an interesting issue. I would fill the bore up with soapy water, moosemilk or something and let it sit for an hour or two, dump it, patch it out, and attack again with a combination of JB Bore Paste/Iosso and a good brush. Keep in mind if you're using a brass jag, it will leave black on a patch if it comes into contact with a solvent.

I don't know how well this would work for a front stuffer, but sometimes I use turpentine on my BPCR guns when the fouling is heavy heavy, which is rare. The turpentine will turn a soft cotton patch almost sticky and the patch will grab things it wouldn't normally grab.

 

[Flintlock]

Run a copper bore brush down the barrel once in awhile while cleaning, or use a tow worm to scour the barrel. I oil my barrel as soon as it's dry, the same night, using olive oil or motor oil.

 

[Danny Ross]

Not sure what you are using for the cleaning patch. If it is T shirt material, I have found when it gets wet it seems to stretch making it thinner around the jag and not getting deep into the rifling of the barrel. What you might try and what I do is this. Run your first patch like normal when you bilge clean the barrel to get the worst of the fouling out, then your next few patches wet the patch before you start it down the barrel and fold it over making it double thick so it will reach deeper into the rifling, to get to the build up that is deeper in the rifling grooves. It will be a little tight when you first start it down the barrel but as you work it up and down it will get somewhat easier. If you don't have one, get a Range Rod and a Bore Guide to use when cleaning, make a lot of difference when cleaning and loading at the range. But to get out what is in there now, using a bore brush wouldn't hurt, but a number of people, including me, have had them come off the rod when it was down in the barrel, then you have to get it out. You could use 000 or 0000 steel wool wrapped around your cleaning jag and work it up and down the barrel to get any carbon build up out that is there now. An SOS pad for cleaning pots and pans will work also. Do that then bilge the barrel with water, then do it a few more times flushing between each scrubbing. Think of it as scrubbing off burned on food, off a steel pot. Anyway that's all I got to try and help. DANNY

 

[Britsmoothy]

You choice of lube is failing to keep the fouling in suspension, in fact it is aiding the carbon residue to build up and bake on.

I get this happen in my smoothbores but its not so much of an issue with shotguns. I don't worry because I know the corrosive elements have been flushed away.
Personally I think swabbing makes things worse, it is presenting near unprotected steel to carbon.
I like to highlight soft lead bullets in breech loaders and none finer example is the wee 22.
A 22's barrel gets eventually a coating of bullet lube. They can shoot accurately for thousands of rounds. However once a 22's barrel is cleaned it can take a box of ammo before accuracy returns to normal. We have to wait for a sufficient coating of lubricant to coat the whole bore, not partially, the whole bore!

I honestly believe that there is not enough lube on that tiny bit of cloth patch to a; endure the ride in and out of a barrel and b; to keep the fouling not just soft but all its elements in suspension, especially by most store bought products that trend towards a mineral oil based base of which is known for reacting bad with black powder residues!

When I use to shoot a patch ball rifle my patches where slavoured in a mix of beeswax and olive oil.
They were greasy and sticky, I used linen patches.
I never swabbed or needed to. I often left the rifle fouled and no harm arised. It cleaned out fine with hot water and was protected for storage with the same stuff.

One more note, quite unrelated to your accuracy issue is that you can naturally get some discolouration of the surface steel. Similar to the blueing process of a barrel, it is very thin and well, harmless!
If I were you I would be making my own animal and veg lube

 

[French Colonial]

You choice of lube is failing to keep the fouling in suspension, in fact it is aiding the carbon residue to build up and bake on.

I get this happen in my smoothbores but its not so much of an issue with shotguns. I don't worry because I know the corrosive elements have been flushed away.
Personally I think swabbing makes things worse, it is presenting near unprotected steel to carbon.
I like to highlight soft lead bullets in breech loaders and none finer example is the wee 22.
A 22's barrel gets eventually a coating of bullet lube. They can shoot accurately for thousands of rounds. However once a 22's barrel is cleaned it can take a box of ammo before accuracy returns to normal. We have to wait for a sufficient coating of lubricant to coat the whole bore, not partially, the whole bore!

I honestly believe that there is not enough lube on that tiny bit of cloth patch to a; endure the ride in and out of a barrel and b; to keep the fouling not just soft but all its elements in suspension, especially by most store bought products that trend towards a mineral oil based base of which is known for reacting bad with black powder residues!

When I use to shoot a patch ball rifle my patches where slavoured in a mix of beeswax and olive oil.
They were greasy and sticky, I used linen patches.
I never swabbed or needed to. I often left the rifle fouled and no harm arised. It cleaned out fine with hot water and was protected for storage with the same stuff.

One more note, quite unrelated to your accuracy issue is that you can naturally get some discolouration of the surface steel. Similar to the blueing process of a barrel, it is very thin and well, harmless!
If I were you I would be making my own animal and veg lube

Everything Britsmoothy said is spot on........

In addition JB Bore paste is sometimes notoriously hard to get out of a barrel once its in. Scrub, scrub, scrub with something like Butch's bore shine (Now we are removing oily bore paste, water is for black powder residue!) until you can use a borescope (Or drop one of those little single cell AAA flashlights down the barrel) and the barrel is perfectly clean.
Now go back to mink oil or mutton tallow and black powder.

 

[oldwood]

Too many folks are having trouble w/ this burnt on ring of fouling near the breech. You need to analyze your patch material , and or your patch lube. If patch material has any trace of nylon plastic fiber in it , don't use that . Also , any lube containing cooking oils can scorch into a ring of fouling near the breach. Try a different type lube. Mutton tallow , mink oil , list is endless. I shot patched round ball in competition for over a decade and my experience with the ring was that it was only a burnt powder ash ring. All needed to clear it on the firing line was a bronze brush and water or bore cleaner and one patch. Reload and keep firing..........oldwood

 

[user 28522]

http://www.montanaxtreme.com/products/?id=8&product=CopperCreamThis another product I’ve tried, JB worked better in my opinion although this did continue to pull black out of the barrel.
My cleaning material as I remember is a “lining” maybe a drapery lining I got from the local fabric store and I cut to 1 1/2” squares. It is VERY tight to get started in the 45 and if doubled it it is tight as well in the 50’s.
The carbon ring I have only experienced when I cranked the load up to 75-80 grains for 100 yard testing. It was easily removed at the range with a damp cleaning patch followed by a dry one.
When I did drop one of those bobber lights down the bore you could make out small areas of fouling in the bore groove. After scrubbing with the brush/ patch combo w/ Hoppes patch lube the spots I notices were gone. Little by little I’m making progress, I did run loose wet patches of Hoppes down the bore to soak over night. IMHO the Butches Bore shine didn’t work as well as the Hoppes did on this fouling.
Just as a side note, after cleaning the barrel to the point the water exiting is clean I blow compressed air down the bore followed by WD40 allowing that to sit overnight. The next day I pass another wet WD40 patch down the bore followed by Wonderlube 1000. Prior to a range trip I pass at least two clean dry patches down the bore to remove those two ingredients.
Once I get this fouling from the barrel I was thinking about trying something different to keep the rust at bay between range trips, something that will be easily removed with Brake cleaner perhaps. I was then going to switch to using the tin of Mink oil I have and see how that goes.
Thank you for your thoughts as I try to work thru this.

 

[user 28522]

Not sure what you are using for the cleaning patch. If it is T shirt material, I have found when it gets wet it seems to stretch making it thinner around the jag and not getting deep into the rifling of the barrel.

I have experienced this in the past, T shirt material is best for wiping your cleaning rod. Souther bloomers is another product to avoid for cleaning patches as it stretches horribly.

 

[bigstick6017555]

"This another product I’ve tried, JB worked better in my opinion although this did continue to pull black out of the barrel."

Just remember that even if your bore was never fired , and you ran JB through it, JB will give you black patches. JB minutely removes steel from your bore turning your patches black. Go easy with it, it will do its job, it can also be overdone. JB bore bright is not as aggressive as JB non-embedding bore cleaning compound.

 

[user 28522]

Agree % bigstick. Im using the feel of the rod going back and forth (the jerky motion) to gauge where I am. I do also have a jar of the Bore bright. It’s good stuff but it can indeed be over done.
Just a thought, do you think the hour trip home from the range would be enough time to set up a tough fouling?

 

[bang]

If the tight spots are the same each time I would suspect there could be some roughness at those points that collect fouling.

 

[sawyer04]

You'all use any petroleum products, it will cake like coal chunks. Gunpowder and petro doesn't mix well.

 

[Crow-Feather]

I’m not sure what‘s causing this so I’ll try and lay it out.
This issue all started this year with the three rifles I have shot. Lyman GPR 50 cal, Pedersoli Rocky Hawken 50 cal, and a Pedersoli Pennsylvania 45 cal. Each appear to clean up with tap water, either hot or warm is what I have used in the past without issue. I plunge the barrel with a cleaning rod with the appropriate size jag and snug fitting patches. Usually I do change the water so I can see when the barrel is no longer getting dark discharge from the nipple port. In the case of the Pennsylvania I use a hose system that replaces the nipple to plunge the water back and forth in the barrel.
The issue I’m having is the following day after shooting I run a patch with WD40 with a tight patch and you can feel tight spots and the patch comes out with black streaks, no rust just black. I end up using JB bore paste which comes out with a BLACK patch. The Pedersoli Hawken cleans up the easiest of the three but still can’t figure out why. Hoppes patch lube and bore cleaner seems to work pretty good when applied to a bore brush, I have been wrapping a patch around the brush and applying a couple drops to the patch.
At first I thought it might be the powder because I got some from another shooter that has stopped shooting, the cans are all sealed but I can’t say for sure how they were stored. I did some searching here and many say powder doesn’t deteriorate so I guess that can be ruled out. My load in the Hawken is 50 grains of FF with either store bought patches or my own cut patches, I have been using Lehigh Valley Lube in all three rifles. One range trip I used water with a few drops of Dawn and experienced the same issue when i cleaned it up. I always clean upon returning home from the range which is an hour ride.
Another sign that something is afoul is the accuracy is dropping off about a third of the way thru a shooting session, I have tried wiping between shots and still get crazy fliers that are 4” or more from the group.
If you have any suggestions I would be will to listen and give them a try.

Longone

I had the same problem. Especially in rifles that I bought used. I sealed the nipple with leather and the hammer pressing on it and then poured super hot water down the bore, filling the bore and letting it sit for about ten minutes. I then split a scratch pad making it thinner and after pouring out the water, put the scratch pad down the bore. It came out with a bunch of black crud. I then repeated filling the barrel with super hot water and used the scratch pad again. I continued this until the pad came out somewhat clean. I then used a wet bore brush to finish the barrel. I cooled the barrel to avoid flash rust and then dried and coated it with a good rust preventative. Best of luck

 

[Josephg]

I shoot a 45 quite a bit. I also use about 50 grains FFF and PRB. Rifle will load and shoot accurate all day without swabbing between shots and without cleaning.

I always use a spit patch. Really wet spit patch. It's cheap..... Rifle is cleaned and oiled immediately after a shooting session. I have not used water hot or cold since 1974. BLACK-SOLVE on patches for cleaning.

 

[SmokepoleSam]

I also live an hour from the range and do a quick clean before I leave. I run a sloppy patch or two with dawn&water and a dry patch in-between to clean the bulk of the fouling and then run a patch with rem oil down the bore. You can use any protective oil you want and then clean when you get home. I find it much quicker at home with this method. For cleaning the bore at the range before shooting I wipe with alcohol. I think(dangerous I know) just dry wiping leaves a little residue. Petroleum products work very well to protect rifle bores and when you want to shoot them you just wipe out the bore with alcohol.