Barrel Cleaning...

[sooter76]

So I'm a bit freaked out... I haven't shot my GPR in about 2 weeks now, but yesterday I checked it over and noticed some rust spots. Sone today I rode it down and cleaned those spots and added some barricade to help prevent further rust. Not a big deal but the barrel may have been a different matter.

Now after the range last time I did clean the rifle. I put some how water in a 5 gallon bucket and used the plunger method and then ran some patches to swab the barrel out before finishing up by running an oiled patch down it. Now I've never gotten a perfectly clean patch out of the barrel, but I thought it looked pretty good when I got done. However, today I ran a dry patch down and it came out extremely dirty as you can see in the photo (top patch). Now I know with my modern rifles, oil left to sit too long can look like a dirty barrel, but this looks different to me. Anyway I got some presoaked patches and ran them till they came out almost as they went in and finished up with a dry patch (bottom 2 patches in the photo) and then ran a Barricade soaked patch to protect from rust.

Anyway, this has all left me uneasy. Am I over reacting or was my barrel as nasty as I think it was? If so, what am I doing wrong? The last thing I want is to ruin my barrel due to ignorance...

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[mooman76]

I'd say over reacting a little but in a good way. Better to react than to just put it away and forget about it. Probably just oil and grease from after cleaning. Just keep checking every so often and you'll be fine.

 

[coloradoclyde]

You did good double checking after cleaning....what you have experienced is a common phenomenon.

Not all water is created equal...the acids formed from burning BP have to be neutralized...different waters have different buffering capabilities.
Add some dawn dish soap to the water next time and see how that works especially if your using a greasy, oily or waxy patch lube...also use warmer water as chemical reaction increase with temperature...
And of course always double check, days later..
Everything from shots fired to daily humidity can affect the end results.

 

[sooter76]

I use really hot water... Just short of boiling. Should I use cooler water by chance as well?

 

[coloradoclyde]

Soap.... do you use soap?

Heat increases chemical reactions....but you don't want to increase bad reactions....Acids also work better at higher temps....Soap has a high PH and can help lower the acidity as well as remove grease that can trap acid.
Temperature will increase the reaction time.

Give it a try and record your results so you know what to do or not to do in the future..

Are you using municipal water?

 

[sooter76]

Soap.... do you use soap?

I haven't been, but I'm certainly going to start now. Thanks.

 

[agill]

Check the bore again after you try the cool water method. If it still shows rust try regular Hoppes and see if that helps. I had the same problem and it has helped me.

I use public water, but it has a lot of lime and possibly other chemicals in it in this area. Don't know if that matters or not.

 

[Crewdawg445]

I must admit... I get extremely over anal about my cleaning, to the point of it must be followed in an exact sequence or else my barrel and locks will convert back to instant iron oxide. A bit over the top yes, but then I was enlightened by a rather tried and true product called ballistol. Bought some and now all my other lubes, greases and such collect dust. Very good stuff, all natural and will clean, lube and protect every part of you smoke pole. Best of all being all natural it's easy on your skin and smells darned good IMO. :hatsoff:

Oh before I forgot, it makes a fabulous ingredient for moose milk!

 

[coloradoclyde]

From the Balistol MSDS sheet.

Ballistol contains medicinal grade mineral oil, alkaline salts of oleic acid, several alcohols, Benzyl Acetate and an oil from vegetal seeds. The mineral oil is unchlorinated and conforms to the specifications of US Pharmacopeia XX.
Volatile Organic Components (VOCs)
As an aerosol Ballistol contains 33.8% VOCs. As a non-aerosol it contains 5.3% VOCs.
Propellants
Ballistol aerosols contain A-70 (a Butane, Propane blend ) as propellants. The pressure inside the full can is 7-7.5 bars. Ballistol aerosols contain 14% Isohexane as a thinner.

 

[smo]

Everyone should use the Bill Clinton method of breathing around this stuff and don't inhale. :barf: :slap: :haha:

 

[Crewdawg445]

:idunno: Gotta be honest CC, im no chemist but despite whatever is in it's chemical makeup, it works and is far less hazardous than the vast majority of other branded cleaners and junk.

 

[Rick Boylan]

I use really hot water... Just short of boiling. Should I use cooler water by chance as well?

You don't need to use scalding hot water. I use slightly warm water when I clean. Sometimes I use cool water. I've read comments from some who state that very hot water can cause flash rust. Iv'e never had that problem since I only use mildly warm when cleaning. Not a speck of rust on my guns.

 

[Vaino]

I use 120 degree hot water which has been treated in an iron filter and then a softener and have never had "flash rust" in the bore. While the bbl is still hot, a generous amount of Oxyoke 1000 is swabbed down the bore, wiped out and then some more Oxyoke 1000 is sent down the bore w/ a loose patch.

When I first started shooting MLers, always checked the bore a few days later by sending a dry patch down, but the patches were always clean, so discontinued doing it. Some of my MLers have sat on the rack for up to 3 yrs w/o the bores rusting and this was after the initial cleaning.

Forgot to mention that in addition to swabbing w/ a patch, I also use a bronze wire brush...really cleans out the groove corners.....Fred

 

[don hepler]

If you ever browned a barrel, or even read about how it is done, the one thing, besides the acid which is used to rust brown a barrel, is Hot Water, often in a sweat box. This raises the humidity and begins the rust process. The barrel is rinsed, with baking soda, then oiled to stop the rusting.

Just use room temp. water, dry it good, and use a good oil. I like the Remington oil. However, I still check, each day, for several days, then each week, then each month. It seems to me that some barrels are more prone to rust, than others.

 

[Dewey]

:hmm: The key thing in your browning description is the acid. And you forgot the time factor.

Pure water does not directly cause rust - you could let iron set in pure deoxygenated water without rust formation. You DO need the oxygen (or some other oxidant, such as hydrogen peroxide) to start the rusting reactions. And of course electrolytes (salts, acids, bases) speed up these electrochemical reactions. That's why we are trying to remove them!

Even though the reactions are faster in hot water, there is a lot less dissolved oxygen in hot water than in cold water, so IMHO it's sort of a trade off in terms of forming rust (higher temperature vs higher oxygen concentration, both factors speed up kinetic reaction speed).

HOWEVER, most substances (such as the black powder residues) are more soluble in higher temperature water, so less water treatment for a shorter time may be needed with warmer water than cold to remove the residues.

So, IMHO, I see no problem with using hot water just as long as you don't' let it sit for too long a long time. And one advantage I see is that the hot barrel may dry more completely that a cold one.

The biggest factors (again, IMHO) is that you need to QUICKLY and THOROUGHLY remove the residues and then COMPLETELY DRY the barrel - as well as giving it a protective coat of oil (or your favorite protective agent). Not doing THAT is where the rust is coming from, not water temperature.

 

[Dewey]

PS Despite your water temperature, if you are not scrubbing your barrel during the cleaning process (I use tight cleaning patches along with the hot soapy water - the old GI type ones, others use brushes) the odds are that you won't get all the residue out - and that will mean rust.

 

[Dewey]

PPS

FYI (if you want to know):

"Black Powder residue consists of potassium carbonate (basic in water), potassium sulfate, potassium sulfide, potassium thiosulfate, potassium thiocyanate, carbon, and sulfur."

(I didn't do this analysis, found the reference by Randy Wakeman).


I think I will check the pH of my first wash next time. These substances seem more alkaline and neutral than acid ....

 

[Dewey]

PPPS

SO2 would in water, of course, form sulfuric acid, and CO2 carbonic acid - but I wonder how much relative to the basic salts formed (does most escape as gases?).

The reference states: "Upon ignition the sulfur burns, producing hydrogen sulfide, and the saltpeter decomposes, releasing free oxygen molecules, sustaining combustion, and combining with the carbon of the charcoal to form carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. Heat energy is released as the gas expands. Sulfur will vaporize at 832.28º F. The principal gases formed are carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen. About one third of the gas created is nitrogen."

I would think you would have some SO2, too, but that isn't what it says .....

We all know for sure the good 'ol smell of H2S !!! :haha:

 

[Zonie]

Ah yes. H2S or hydrogen sulfide.

The very thing Stumpkillers camp chili is so good at producing so the entire camp can enjoy his fixins long after the meal is finished.

He claims this will keep the hungriest bear out of a tent all night. The problem is, it also will keep most mortal men out of the tent all night.

(Not carrying a pouch of sulpher, Stumpkiller's been known to dump in a little black powder to give his chili what he calls, "The Essence of Bear Proofing".) :rotf:

 

[azmntman]

Ah yes. H2S or hydrogen sulfide.

The very thing Stumpkillers camp chili is so good at producing so the entire camp can enjoy his fixins long after the meal is finished.

He claims this will keep the hungriest bear out of a tent all night. The problem is, it also will keep most mortal men out of the tent all night.

(Not carrying a pouch of sulpher, Stumpkiller's been known to dump in a little black powder to give his chili what he calls, "The Essence of Bear Proofing".) :rotf:

Hey! If pyrodex or triple seven would work we can now use it as seasoning rather than pouring in the garden!!! :idunno: