Barrel Repair

[wandrist]

Hi Everyone,
I have a .45 cal longrifle I purchased not long ago. When I received it I found it had a .157 dia hole drilled in the breech. The breech, nipple hole were cast, machined and welded to the barrel. OK, my question is, Should I weld the hole up or should I drill, tap and install a breech Plug: Thanks Bill

 

[54ball]

We need some pics....
A better description would help also.
If original it may have been done to render the gun unfireable.
I will say welding on any part of the barrel is unsafe especially on the breach.

 

[illuveatar]

I think a picture would really help here. Sounds like someone did this to render the gun inoperable. Do you know the name of the gun manufacturer ?

 

[Elnathan]

Hi Everyone,
I have a .45 cal longrifle I purchased not long ago. When I received it I found it had a .157 dia hole drilled in the breech. The breech, nipple hole were cast, machined and welded to the barrel. OK, my question is, Should I weld the hole up or should I drill, tap and install a breech Plug: Thanks Bill

I think some imports back in the '60s from Spain and Italy had welded breech plugs. I'd cut the whole breech off, and fit a proper lug. Then I'd go find another barrel that I felt sure was made by someone who knew what they were doing.

 

[jdkerstetter]

I would trash the barrel if it was welded on. Welding heat will change the metalurgy and it may be to brittle or weak as you don't know who did it and how they did it. Even if the barrel is good the breach was probably effected and now unsafe. Cast breaches are not the best option in the first place unless the are tested and assured free of casting voids. Yea, I know.... :yakyak:

If you are inclined to use it I would cut the breach off well foreward of the plug, throw away the plug and rebreach the barrel. You may be left with a very short barrel or a couple of pistol barrels but that's OK.

Straight barrels of known quality are plentiful enough and cheap enough that I wouldn't risk using someone elses cast off screw-up. Just check e-bay any day of the week.

Error on the side of caution in this case.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[rich pierce]

Good advice!

 

[kaintuck]

price of a new barrel $250 bucks~
price of the ER visit/recovery doc visits..10,000+

it's JUST a hobby.....don't chance it! :surrender:

 

[jdkerstetter]

It's even a bigger difference than that as Rice will sell you a straight barrel for $175....breach plug installed is only $25 more.

Green Mountain's are generally cheaper....if you can find one!

You can get take off T/C, Spanish and Italian barrels a lot cheaper any day on the on-line auction sites.

Not worth the risk using somebody elses cast-offs. :shake:

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[wandrist]

Thanks for all the advise. Here's a picture to see what I'm talking about. Drill and tap for Breech Plug? Thanks Bill.

 

[wandrist]

Sorry, I put in the image url but it doesn't display the Pic. If you click on this URL: http://www.mediafire.com/view/?sc4l165vvl69sfo
you should be able to see it. Thanks Bill.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Drill and tap for Breech Plug? Thanks Bill.

When a barrel is cut off the end is left flat so you need to thread it for a new breech plug.

First, you either have to make or buy a breech plug. One that is bigger than bore diameter is ideal.

The end of the barrel you intend to breech will have to be drilled (into the bore) with the correct bit for the tap you will use to thread for the plug. Tap is, of course, determined by thread pitch of breech plug.

Idealy you should have some way to machine the end of the newly drilled hole so there is a flat shoulder for the plug to bottom against....i.e. end mill or drill bit ground flat.

Thread the new hole for your breech plug using starter and bottoming taps.

If you don't have all of this tooling or not equipted to deal with this, some shops will do it for a reasonable fee.

***Also, I couldn't open your picture but I am at work so it may not be your fault.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Well the pic opened for me but, I am not sure what I am looking at.

Can't see the point unless they wanted to render the barrel inoperable! :hmm:

Did you purchase this from an individual or off a gun site?

Maybe the former owner could shed some light as to what the h@$% is going on there! It almost looks if someone was planning on drilling for a breech plug and the small hole was for alignment with a large bit. The hole thing just strikes me as very strange and a bit dangerous, since you didn't know anything about this when you purchased!

If it has been welded as you say I think I would leave the whole thing alone and go with a new barrel! Then you will know for sure what you got!

 

[Rifleman1776]

I think some imports back in the '60s from Spain and Italy had welded breech plugs.

True. But I would add the 1970s and Japan to your list.
Some just had friction force fit breeches. Some welded, some not. Scary bad stuff that made other El Cheapos look good. Hope all those rifles are either wall hangers or lamp stands now.

 

[simeon england]

"True. But I would add the 1970s and Japan to your list.
Some just had friction force fit breeches. Some welded, some not. Scary bad stuff that made other El Cheapos look good. Hope all those rifles are either wall hangers or lamp stands now."

Not yet. I was given one (with a welded on breech plug) a few months ago, by someone who was trying to make it shoot. Glad he didnt! Mine is junk, and I will never even try to shoot it.
And actually, a lampstand is a good idea for it. :thumbsup:

If you have a gun with a welded on breech plug, its likely not worth trying to repair or save parts from. The cheap way they machined the barrels even, is a testimony to how cheaply everything else on the gun is made too.
I cant see your picture, and dont know if you have the same gun as mine, but if you have ANY questions about it, dont move forward.

 

[Zonie]

I've studied your picture for a while and unless you are speaking of that hole in the center of the breech as being the welded feature I don't see any other welds.

It looks like the breech plug has been screwed into the breech of the barrel to me so I don't see anything unusual about that.

That machined hole that is in line with the bore could have been made to support the plug while other machined features were being machined.

If that hole doesn't go all the way thru the rear of the breech plug to break out into the barrel it won't cause any problems at all.

If you can unscrew the breech plug, check out the interior of the powder chamber to see if the hole passes clear thru the part. If it doesn't, don't worry about it.

If it does break thru the wall but it is plugged with a weld, it would probably be all right to use if the weld totally plugs the hole.

If the weld doesn't totally plug the hole it would be better to drill it out, tap some threads into the hole and install a threaded set screw with some thread sealant in there.

Before folks get too upset with me for saying this, a good weld is as strong as the casting if the right welding rod was used.

There is no heat treatment on this part so the weld heat won't mess anything up.

There are plugged threaded holes in almost every muzzleloaders breeches. Some have nipples or nipple drums screwed into them and a lot of them have vent holes drilled thru them.

Maybe another picture will change my mind but at the moment I don't see any major problems with this barrel/breech plug that would cause me to say throw it away.

 

[jdkerstetter]

I'm home and have looked at your barrel picture.

How long is this barrel? Judging by the rear sight location this appears to be a pistol barrel. Probably Spanish 1970's vintage.

Are there proof marks on the barrel or any other identifying marks? If not this barrel has probably been cut and rebreached. If done correctly it will probably be OK.

Breech may be threaded or pressed in, but probably threaded and those breeches are often hard to remove without damaging the outer surface. Because there is no opposing flat surfaces to grip I find it easiest to use a large "pipe wrench" (not the monkey wrench in the picture) with some thick leather to pad the jaws and anchoring the one jaw against the top flat.

Zoni is right, based on the picture, it doesn't appear welded and if the hole doesn't go full depth it is probably OK.

If there is any question though, I would likely not use the barrel. If a pistol barrel a new one would run you less than $100 breeched and then you will be sure of what you have.

Besides that square bottom on the patent breech on that barrel is unattractive and will limit your lock choice to a bar lock. :shake:

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[wandrist]

To all who have replied I want too thank all of You. To Zoni ,I think you have the solution with threading and installing a plug. I bought the rifle from a Gun auction that advertised it for parts.This auction is for a 45 caliber muzzleloader rifle for parts...It has an octagon barrel and It is percussion.It has what looks like the following on it: MFG. FOR ULTRA-HI BY MIROKU JAPAN 10057 .45 CAL. BLACK POWDER ONLY.Needs main spring and side plate. Wood may be darker than appears in pics. I paid $50.00 for it. I discovered the hole when I disassembled the rifle to refinish the stock. I found out that the hole was drilled When the owner tried to remove what he believed was a stuck Ball.

 

[50cal.cliff]

[/URL]

I could be wrong as it could very well be the angle of the photo but it looks as if that hole that was drilled is quite possibly off center of the barrel. That could be problematic when it comes to drilling and threading a breech plug.

 

[Sperit de bois]

a funeral is only $6300.00 last I checked,,it's all about choices.Me,, I'd go with a new barrel.
Read some where the early Japanese barrels were two section welded together like two short barrels.Id cut the barrel and use it for a pistol build with new breech plugs and buy a new barrel./You wrote it was sold for "parts" reads about correct to me.
Not worth the chance,,,

 

[54ball]

I found out that the hole was drilled When the owner tried to remove what he believed was a stuck Ball.

DAIR :youcrazy:

If it was me,I would get a TOTW catalog. I would measure and compare what lock flint or percussion would work, what size barrel I needed, then I would go from there.
I would consider it a kit needing a lock and barrel fitted. It is a good possibility that that stock is Cherry. Refinished it could be a very attractive mid 19th century rifle.

The Track catalog has full size pics so you can trace or copy to see what components are close.