Barrels that are not 12L14 steel

[GBG]

I have a 7/22 email from Suzie at

The Gun Works Muzzleloading Emporium

stating they can build their tapered octogon barrels in 4140 for an additional $150 (at that time).

You could ask about their other styles of barrels.

 

[deerstalkert]

Hi Philip,
Jason Schneider at Rice Barrels can probably make you a custom barrel with 4140 steel. It won't be cheap but I am sure he could make any spec you require. The 62 caliber smooth bore below has a very light barrel made of 4140.

It is very light but recoil is punishing even with only 70-80 grains of 2F powder.

dave

Dave, sir, every time you display your art work, it makes me want to go back to bed and cover my head! if i live to be 150 i will never approach your level of artistry.
seriously though, it always inspires me to try harder to at least make something without glaring mistakes.
OP. Rice and green mountain don't use 12 L 14

 

[Sandro_Ventania]

Mistakes do happen, and things are built with a safety factor "in case of".

In this case, the material was chosen not for any safety reason, but against safety reasons: that steel is easy to machine, it saves time and money, and increases the useful life of your cutting tools.

It has poor corrosion resistance (I don't like that), and from what I understand, poor characteristics in fracture tests with a stress raiser.

I've been involved in investigations on multiple incidents of blown-up CF rifles from a very famous brand, who thinks it's better (cheaper) to fight litigation case-per-case than to recall their rifles due to a design defect. The bean counters are happy, and people keep getting maimed, with life-altering injuries...

I stated the reasons why I'd rather have a barrel made from a different material. There are a few barrel makers (incidentally, at the top of the quality game, not at the cheap end...) who do not use that steel, and go for more expensive and harder to work materials. Maybe they know something...

So... let's go again. I mentioned stainless steel before, not for aesthetics, but because it remains corrosion-free. Does anything condemn 304 stainless steel? But okay... so let's talk about sae 1045 steel... it's an easy steel to find, it seems to be stronger than 12L14. But are there any characteristics in it that we can't use in a barrel? Sorry, instead of answering your question, I ask more questions. That's why I agree with your opinion.

 

[longcruise]

OP. Rice and green mountain don't use 12 L 14

I thought Rice used 12L14.

 

[SDSmlf]

GM uses 1137. Rice’s fast twist conical barrels are made out of 4140, but they will make roundball barrels out of what you want. Contact Jason and give him a spec to quote to.

 

[dave_person]

Dave, sir, every time you display your art work, it makes me want to go back to bed and cover my head! if i live to be 150 i will never approach your level of artistry.
seriously though, it always inspires me to try harder to at least make something without glaring mistakes.
OP. Rice and green mountain don't use 12 L 14

Hi,
Thank you but the gun I showed in the first gun built by my apprentice, Maria. I guided her closely but she built the gun. I did the engraving.

dave

 

[Tumbledown]

I've been involved in investigations on multiple incidents of blown-up CF rifles from a very famous brand, who thinks it's better (cheaper) to fight litigation case-per-case than to recall their rifles due to a design defect. The bean counters are happy, and people keep getting maimed, with life-altering injuries...

But we're not talking about CF rifles, or more importantly smokeless powders. Pressure spikes and the resulting stresses are much greater for smokeless vs black powder.

You are overthinking the issue.

 

[longcruise]

But we're not talking about CF rifles, or more importantly smokeless powders. Pressure spikes and the resulting stresses are much greater for smokeless vs black powder.

You are overthinking the issue.

I tend to agree with that. I've watched this debate as it has cropped up many times over many years and have not seen any evidence of ruptures of any ml barrels that weren't related to misuse by the user.

 

[Philip A.]

I tend to agree with that. I've watched this debate as it has cropped up many times over many years and have not seen any evidence of ruptures of any ml barrels that weren't related to misuse by the user.

Yes, the vast majority of failures are due to user error.

But that's not the point. The material's mode of failure is, besides other negative properties.

In a firearm, if something goes wrong you want stuff to bulge and bend, not to crack or shatter.

If the guy who went to play hobbyist submariner with the Titanic had spent five minutes watching videos comparing deformation tests on carbon fiber, titanium and other materials, with the carbon fiber he'd have seen the pressure gauge going up, up, up, UP - and - ZERO-BANG! the piece shatters like glass. And with the titanium, up, up, up, UP - and - bend, bend, bend.... Guess which one would have given him time to reverse course.

It's not "things break", it's "how do things break and why".

I'd have no qualms whatsoever shooting 12L14 in most of the standard muzzleloader profiles, but if I knowingly thin the walls, and have to cut stress points in them, I want to do that on something else.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Folks,
You need to read what Philip's objective is. He is not choosing a different barrel steel from 12L14 because he won't accept it for muzzleloading barrels, rather he wants a very light 62 caliber rifle barrel that could stress the safety margins of 12L14. He is making the same decision that Dave Price made years ago when he had Green Mountain make his very light weight and thin walled barrel blanks for his double barreled swivel breech rifles so they were not too heavy. I use 12L14 barrels all the time but when my shop wanted a really light fowler barrel that weighed and handled like the originals, we chose a barrel in 4140 because no modern makers build those kind of barrels in 12L14. The typical fowler barrels made today are considerably heavier than similar sized originals. Having written that, there is a trade off. Those heavier barrels are better for shooting patched round balls because recoil is easier on the body and the weight steadies your aim. However, the light and lively lighter barrel is great for shooting at flying birds with shot.

dave

 

[longcruise]

It's not "things break", it's "how do things break and why".

And apparently they are not breaking. And I get what you are telling us but if things aren't breaking then isn't how things break and why introducing an irrelevancy to the 12L14 barrel debate.

my shop wanted a really light fowler barrel that weighed and handled like the originals, we chose a barrel in 4140

What were those originals made of?

 

[dave_person]

And apparently they are not breaking. And I get what you are telling us but if things aren't breaking then isn't how things break and why introducing an irrelevancy to the 12L14 barrel debate.

What were those originals made of?

Hi Longcruiser,
Welded wrought iron. Modern makers using 12L14 don't make them very thin walled even if they could. Moreover, 10-15% of welded iron barrels made in England in the 18th century did not pass proofing and were remanded to the barrel forgers for reforging. In addition, accidentally blown barrels were not uncommon. The famous Hawks fowler that I copied recently is in remarkably good condition because the thin walled French barrel developed a hole either from corrosion or blow out and was subsequently hung on the wall and never used again. It was spared the depredations of being used up or converted to percussion and hence, is in great condition for our benefit.

dave

 

[Uncle Miltie]

And apparently they are not breaking. And I get what you are telling us but if things aren't breaking then isn't how things break and why introducing an irrelevancy to the 12L14 barrel debate.

What were those originals made of?

Original barrels were made of wrought iron and steel. Lead was not added to them for better machinability and finishing.

Old barrels made of old steel and iron are not as strong as those made of modern gun barrel steel but they were still pretty resistant to fracturing.

 

[Philip A.]

And apparently they are not breaking. And I get what you are telling us but if things aren't breaking then isn't how things break and why introducing an irrelevancy to the 12L14 barrel debate.

Apparently things are not breaking.

Except when they do.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/12l14-barrel-comes-apart.139208/

Just spend 15 minutes on the Net looking for broken things, and you'll find your heart content.

 

[longcruise]

Except when they do.

And that's a perfect example of what is widely acknowledged. Misuse. It can and will happen with any barrel material.

I think you need to decide if you are enlightening us on the technical aspects of barrel steel strength or are you warning us about risk that doesn't seem to exist to users of 12L14 barrels.

 

[Philip A.]

And that's a perfect example of what is widely acknowledged. Misuse. It can and will happen with any barrel material.

I think you need to decide if you are enlightening us on the technical aspects of barrel steel strength or are you warning us about risk that doesn't seem to exist to users of 12L14 barrels.

I think you need to re-read what I wrote.

 

[Cruzatte]

Because 12L14 is cold rolled steel, non-descript, lead-alloyed, easily machinable stock. No steel mill would ever recommend it for the manufacture of rifle barrels, because it has several characteristics that would make it highly undesirable for centerfire applications.

This doesn't matter much for normal use in a thick walled, relatively low-pressure black powder-only barrel, and since 12L14's excellent machineability makes it much easier to bore, rifle, and machine barrels out of it than out of chromoly steel, it has gained widespread use in the industry.

However, such trifles matter when things go pear-shaped, and a clumsy user ventures into experimental rocketry thanks to a forgotten ramrod, a double charge, a short started ball, or any such shenanigans: here, the safety factor can get pretty slim, and sometimes fall below 1, the magic number.

I'm looking to make a light rifle in .62. This means a big hole in as-thin-as-possible a barrel profile.

This is why it matters to me that my barrel is made of a material more suited to the application than 12L14...

Thank you for your reply.

 

[longcruise]

I think you need to re-read what I wrote.

Well, to be perfectly fair I did just that and didn't find anything that I would reconsider.

But, getting back to your original thoughts on the barrel you want for your own use, I think Rice probably has what you are looking for. I was under the impression that he used 12L14 but another member says otherwise. In any case he offers a 62 cal rifle barrel in 1" or 1 1/8" in a wide variety of lengths. Best email him regarding material.

Another option is to purchase a Coleraine barrel in a lesser caliber and have Hoyt re bore it.

 

[Philip A.]

Thanks to all who gave the same advice! I contacted Jason at Rice barrels, he does barrels in .62, and in 4140...

 

[Rudyard]

Well this steels debate will go on for ever' non of my guns far as I know of have burst some went through Birmingham Proof House many did not .I've swamped uniform barrels Iv'e used very old scelp barrels .Twist & my desired Damascus , none bulged or burst .Again far as I know. I've even use Seemed galvanized water pipe that had just the lightest' fine bore' to make a copy of the work of the celebrated Yuraba Lorry park gun maker Jimmo Babatunde of Ikarudu Federal Nigeria (I did forgo the brazed in breech plug and used a threaded plug) Well I loaded it up stuck it down a rabbit hole' light the paper & retire Proof', which it stood put the barrel back in went & bowled a Bunny and that was all In sought just to have a representative of his work .I had one of his hand & eye forged Flintlocks for some years before the length of water pipe came my way in a junk pile .
At which point some might ask " why ? ".& what is this Rudyard rambling on about ?" . Well like a more distinguished Paul Adamson .I spent some time wandering about Equatortal West Africa where these ' Country ' or 'Dane' guns where commonly found (Some seemed to actually have been cleaned ) I did wait one night in the Cameroons to settle a wailing cat with a borrowed Dane gun ( alternatively called ' Foo Foo Guns ')It didn't show .So that one bunny is all I ever shot from a' Dane' gun. .There might be some ex Peace Corps or CUSO the Canadian equivalent reader who might have brought one home as a souvenir from their 1960e stints .Very Laudable people helping the people in the bush rather than giving $ to the invariably Corrupt Govt pockets .
Regards Left field Rudyard