Battle field load stacking.

[19 16 6]

There are reports of ML guns picked up after battles that had up to 10 loads jammed down them.
Now it seems to me that the bloke who stacked those loads may be dead, or why was his gun picked up after the battle ? Did he run ?
I am curious as to the psychology that caused this. Is there any definitive writings on this phenomenon.

Did he have a miss fire & not realise because of the noise & smoke everywhere & in some panic keep on loading & trying to fire ?

Did the guy not want to shoot fellow humans, so loaded & went through the motions so as not to be seen as yellow ?

What else is there ? I probably didn't think of the actual cause.

If the gun did happen to fire with multiple loads in it like that, what would happen ?
O.

 

[Rifleman1776]

There are many reports about these 'multi-load' muskets being found after battles in the CW.
From what I can surmise, and have learned from those who have been in (modern) battles, the noise and fear levels are so high the guys shooting often did not know when, or if, their guns went off. From training they would automatically reload after pulling the trigger. If they had misfired they didn't know it, thus 'multi-loads'. War is hell.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yeah it's a documented thing in the Civil War...I don't know if it was rifles "picked up" or if after the battle the rifles were inspected and found to have several bullets rammed down.

Of course either the private was so scared when he was loading that he poured all of the powder outside of the barrel (or it was a wet cartridge), and any further rounds loaded simply sat there... or the nipple was so clogged or bad caps or both... the privates were trained to load and shoot...sometimes such a situation with "raw" recruits ends up with them being a "deer in the headlights"....

LD

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

If I recall correctly, I saw a rifle or musket on display in the museum at Gettysburg that had multiple loads in it. That was back in the 80's. :idunno:

 

[BrownBear]

If I recall correctly, I saw a rifle or musket on display in the museum at Gettysburg that had multiple loads in it. That was back in the 80's. :idunno:

I remember it too from that era. Problem is they've really reworked Gettysburg and lots of the old displays have gone the way of the dinosaur.... Including that one.

I've had "similar" experiences which may illuminate, even without the fright of combat. For a long time I shot modern competitive "action" handgun with revolvers. Every once in a while a dud round would sneak into the mix. Worse yet was one that had primer and no powder, sending the slug only an inch or two into the bore.

In the heat of the moment it was almost irresistible to just go ahead and pull the trigger again.... with an obstruction in the barrel.

In combat, if a guy's gun didn't shoot, it's easy to seem him reloading again. And again.

 

[fischereco2]

Flintlocks are deceptive because even a misfire still generates a small flash and bang. When you are surrounded by hundreds of other weapons being discharged, the concussion of cannons, etc, I'm sure it is difficult to tell whether or not your gun actually discharged. Add to that the fact that people are shooting back at you, and it's easy to understand why this may have happened. I can guarantee you that my flintlock would have had a few loads rammed down the barrel, and my trousers might need to be replaced as well. :rotf:

 

[necchi]

If you want to understand the psychology of battle of the era, find a copy of
"The Red Badge of Courage",, it's hollywood but it'll give you an idea.

 

[azmntman]

Think a clue would be the ram rod stopping several inches (or a foot?) to high on the last rounds loaded?

 

[Artificer]

Think a clue would be the ram rod stopping several inches (or a foot?) to high on the last rounds loaded?

One would think so, but in the heat of intense combat, they may or even probably did not realize it. For a well-trained or experienced soldier with LOTS of training on loading in drill, individual loading and firing (when it was allowed) became/becomes automatic with little or no thought from the conscious mind during an intense fight. Anyone who has ever hunted a lot with a shotgun or shot trap or skeet, knows you don’t think about how to reload when you want or need to do it. You grab a shell and load it almost without thinking.

Adrenaline does some rather strange things to you, in the heat of an intense fight or even when you may be in an extremely dangerous situation. Has anyone ever been in a threatening situation, like a vehicular accident, where it seems like time slows down? It may even seem like to your conscious mind, that you are not a participant, but rather observing what is happening? Well, time is not slowing down, rather the adrenaline is causing you to speed up so much faster than normal and giving your conscious mind a view far different than normal.

With a flintlock musket, they often only ordered the troops to fire one to three times before they charged with the bayonet. So in those cases, there were not loading and firing a great deal, independently. If they had a “flash in the pan,” they more likely would have realized it. They probably just primed the pan again with the next cartridge and then dropped that cartridge with the remaining powder and ball on the ground. However, this is speculation as there does not seem to have been written orders or a documented method in case one got “a flash in the pan.”

If in a defensive position like a redoubt or fort (like the Battle Of Breed's/Bunker Hill for example), they may have or did allow more independent firing and if the numbers of attackers was large, the soldiers probably fired a great deal more than “normal” field battles. These are the times when it would more likely happened that someone might load more than one round into the barrel. A Soldier may not have realized he had a “flash in the pan” in the noise, smoke and adrenaline charged fight. So it was more likely multiple loads happened in those cases.

Every now and then in period accounts in the first half of the 18th century, there are times where it was mentioned the barrels “blew up,” that did not seem to have been as numerous as the latter half of the 18th century. Some historians suggest this was due to poorer quality barrels and they may be correct, but at least some of those instances might have been from loading multiple loads and finally the pan went off with more than one load in the barrel.

During the WBTS, there were many more defensive fights where the defending soldiers poured round after round into the opposing attacking force and multiple loads happened or at least were recorded. After the second day of the Battle of Fredericksburg, they found a good number of rifled muskets with multiple loads that had been discarded in the Confederate Position of “The Sunken Road.” During that battle, the Confederates were so packed into the sunken road that they stopped trying to have soldiers move to the rear after firing and another soldier with a loaded musket move up front. The Federals sent wave after wave of troops trying to take the position, but they just wound up getting slaughtered. The Confederates just handed fired muskets to the rear, where other soldiers reloaded them, and loaded muskets were passed to the soldiers in front to fire. If I remember correctly, one discarded musket had something like 21 loads in it. (The barrel would have been filled almost to the muzzle!!!) That would have been a terrible shrapnel grenade if it had actually gone off when far fewer rounds had been loaded into the barrel. It was not recorded that the nipples were fouled/plugged, but it almost had to have been so in the number of discarded muskets with multiple loads. NOTE: The Battle of Fredericksburg was fought on December 13-14, 1862, so the colder weather MAY have caused problems with the caps or powder.

In my first and what turned out to be the toughest fight of my 26 year career, I had added a M870 shotgun to my issued .45 Pistol. I turned a butt pack into a large shot pouch full of full length brass shot shells. We were in a defensive position and got attacked at night by a much larger enemy force. I do not remember reloading the shotgun during the fight, but it always went “Bang” when I needed it. After the fight was over, I was surprised when my right thumb began to hurt and looked down to see it had swollen from all the shells it had pushed into the magazine tube. I was also surprised at the mounds of spent shells around where I had fought, because I did not remember firing that much. So I can really understand how multiple loadings might have happened in 18th and 19th century battles.

Gus

 

[19 16 6]

Thank you for that in depth & personal account Gus. Thank you all.
Consensus so far is the confusion in heat of battle. It must be a crazy thing to not register that the ball did not seat properly when half the ramrod was sticking out of the barrel. Maybe that eventually it did register to some of them & then they discarded that weapon to pick up another from a fallen comrade.

Gus you mentioned the blown up barrels found. I would guess that poor quality would have less to do with it than load stacking. I am wondering what they would have looked like. For instance when a ball is short of being seated on the charge and the rifle is fired the barrel bulges, right ? The ball does leave the barrel, does it not ? With stacked loads, that would be more like an obstruction & if the barrel bursts then the energy is spent there at the point of least resistance. Would that not leave the stack of loads still stuck somewhere near the muzzle on their way trying to get out ?
O.

 

[lapierre1]

There are reported instances of cartridges being filled with dirt instead of gunpowder during the WBTS, Chancellorsville being one of the battles. Ref. 101 Interesting Facts About the Civil War.

 

[19 16 6]

There are reported instances of cartridges being filled with dirt instead of gunpowder during the WBTS, Chancellorsville being one of the battles. Ref. 101 Interesting Facts About the Civil War.

Curious & curiouser or more curious.
What on earth would that be about ? :idunno:
O.

 

[Artificer]

Gus you mentioned the blown up barrels found. I would guess that poor quality would have less to do with it than load stacking. I am wondering what they would have looked like. For instance when a ball is short of being seated on the charge and the rifle is fired the barrel bulges, right ? The ball does leave the barrel, does it not ? With stacked loads, that would be more like an obstruction & if the barrel bursts then the energy is spent there at the point of least resistance. Would that not leave the stack of loads still stuck somewhere near the muzzle on their way trying to get out ?
O.

Even though I have spent a huge amount of time on Military and Civilian Ranges and other Shooting Ranges since 1972 - as a standard and then NM Armorer and BP Armourer at NSSA events up to two World International Muzzle Loading Championships, I have only seen one barrel actually blow up and it was an M14 barrel. It blew up because the barrel maker PAID for high quality certified barrel steel, but was sent poor quality steel with a lot of sulphur stringers in it that caused the failure. However, I have done some "professional interest" research into it over the years. So here are my best answers to your questions:

For instance when a ball is short of being seated on the charge and the rifle is fired the barrel bulges, right ? The ball does leave the rel, does it not ?

Yes, on most bulged barrels I've seen - that is what happened and the ball or shot charge normally left the barrel.

With stacked loads, that would be more like an obstruction & if the barrel bursts then the energy is spent there at the point of least resistance. Would that not leave the stack of loads still stuck somewhere near the muzzle on their way trying to get out ?

This one is a bit harder to answer because different things MAY go on. However, one constant is that gas pressure is going to blow out the area/s of least resistance as you mentioned.

So in a Percussion Gun, it will VIOLENTLY throw the hammer to the rear from the gas pressure coming out the nipple. It MAY even blow the nipple threads out. That will cause damage to the lock parts and the stock around the lock. On a Flintlock, the gas pressure will come out the touch hole vent like a Dragon spewing flames.

On either gun, it also may split open the breech around the breech threads. It may also blow out the barrel close to the multiple loads. The extra loads may or may not be expelled from the muzzle.

IF one or more of the multiple loads further up the barrel were set off, it would likely have cause the barrel to blow up like a shrapnel grenade.

I don't think anyone can give a more exact answer because with handloading a muzzle loader, different things will happen with each time it happens.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

There are reported instances of cartridges being filled with dirt instead of gunpowder during the WBTS, Chancellorsville being one of the battles. Ref. 101 Interesting Facts About the Civil War.

Curious & curiouser or more curious.
What on earth would that be about ? :idunno:
O.

Having lived in or near Fredericksburg for so many years and doing WBTS reenacting and walking the battlefields and studying the battles around Fredericksburg so much, I don't believe I ever heard or read of this.

Gus

 

[mooman76]

I have heard of deer hunters ejecting all their unfired shells when they got overly excited when seeing a deer.

 

[Artificer]

I have heard of deer hunters ejecting all their unfired shells when they got overly excited when seeing a deer.

:rotf: Yes, come to think of it, I have heard similar stories with guys using both lever action and bolt action rifles. :rotf:

Dad only allowed us ONE shotgun shell per day the first year we hunted. So we learned to MAKE DARN SURE not waste it. So that never happened to me, personally.

Gus

 

[azmntman]

THink I mentioned before :redface: I once went through an entire capper trying to get a cap on the nipple when I had a misfire and the herd just kept grazing. I told the boy I didn't wanna clean anything that night when he asked why I didn't shoot it (a spike)

BTW I DID get the bifocals they said I "needed" :rotf:

 

[Grumpa]

I don't have the time to look for it tonight, but I recall Dixie Gun Works doing a test years ago on a then current production muzzleloading barrel purposely loaded with 10 or so stacked charges.

If I recall correctly, the barrel survived the test. I don't recall what the performance of the charges was.

Of course, that's not to say that an original barrel would have survived, but maybe it would. The recoil would have been something, but in the heat of battle would have been little noticed.

The account was in the back of their catalogue.

 

[Tinker2]

I am curious as to the psychology that caused this.



What else is there ?

In truly intense combat you become detached
What you do is by rote



William Alexander

 

[54ball]

I am curious as to the psychology that caused this. Is there any definitive writings on this phenomenon.

I'll share the theory of mental states.
Mental states are identified as White...At rest aloof, to, Yellow... Alert, paying attention, Orange...Threat identified decisions made, strategy planned, Red... Action automatic, in the act fighting or flighting, the person is on autopilot, some call this the Zone

The red zone is when people fall back to training or habit. Law enforcement and military have learned to be very careful in how they train, even what some would consider insignificant actions in training, could show up later.
Here are some modern day examples.

1943 England

A B24 crash lands after sustaining heavy damage. The co pilot is OK after the crash. He is found lighting a cigarette even though he has one in his left hand, one in the right and one in his lips. All three were lit.

Vietnam 1960s

A helicopter pilot lands in a Hot LZ. On of the soldiers as he jumped into the chopper accidentally discharges his grenade launcher. The pilot watched the grenade exit the muzzle, bounce off the floor. He then watched go out the door counting every revolution. He sees it go between the rotors and out of sight.
To this day the pilot cannot explain how he saw all of that from his pilot's seat.

late 1960s California

Two men are on a murder spree. They have already killed at a bar robbery, they have hijacked a car and killed an elderly couple. An APB is issued for the couples car. The car is stopped by two patrolmen 3 months out of the academy.
A gun battle ensues both CHP officers are killed.
Findings...
The first officer shot was the passenger he was armed with a shotgun. Training at the time was that the officer would exit the car behind the door at the "man at arms position". He was shot and killed in this position with his gun at man at arms instead of engaging the suspects behind cover.
Also he had his hat on. At the time officers were trained to don their hats as they exit the car for professional appearance. In the midst of a potential gun battle the officer took the time to don his hat.
The second officer was found dead at the driver's side rear wheel. He was shot in the head at close range. His hands were still holding the open revolver in the act of loading.
In front of the rear tire next to the officer were 6 38Spl hulls in a neat row. In the midst of a gun battle the officer neatly lined his spent cartridges up before reloading.
At the shooting range the officers were trained to line up their spent cartridges like that at the firing line.

1980s Us Interstate...

A State Trooper investigates a suspicious car at a rest area. A gun battle ensues and contact with the trooper is lost. When supporting units arrive the trooper is nowhere to be found. The trooper is found severely wounded in the rest area bathroom.A handful of spent cartridges were found in the toilet next to the trooper.
At the range where the trooper trained, all spent rounds were dumped into a barrel full of
water.

LEOs 1990s-2000s

The three shot training has now been abandoned by most law enforcement agencies. The double tap in the chest with the last in the head has been found to cause problems in real world situations. That problem being the officers just stand there after firing their three shots. Now most are trained to empty their gun until the threat is no longer in view with a target that falls away.

Reenacting

A few years ago at a Rev War reenactment/tactical

A group of soldiers bayonet charge a line of regulars. The regulars fire into the faces of the charging line as they are mere feet away.
Why...they were in the zone.

Gettysburg 120th

A Confederate reenactor reaches the Union Line at the rock wall during Pickett's Charge (High Water Mark). As the Confederate mounts the wall a (glassy eyed Union Reenactor) from three rows back come forward and bayonets him.
Had the Confederate not swerved he would have been centered by the bayonet, instead he had a sever laceration on his ribs as blade skipped to the side.
In the same battle a Union Reenactor from France was using a loaded pistol, wounding a NC reenactor in the neck.