Be Aware

[stinkyfeet]

I pride myself on following the law and doing the right thing. But I broke the law by not reading the rules all the way through. Kansas law reads as follows: Muzzleloading rifles, pistols or muskets that can be loaded only through the front of the firing chamber with separate components and that fire a bullet of .40 inches diameter or larger. I was using a 40 caliber rifle using a prb that was .395 thus not a 40 cal or larger and was written a ticket for it while hunting on Ft Riley which has an earlier season than the rest of the state. Just wanted ya'll to know to read the law carefully. I admit its a grey area, but as read was wrong.. I can take it to court, whats ya'll think

 

[Kapow]

The rifle is .40cal. It could be argued that including patch the "projectile" was .40. This is the sort of crap that incites civil disobedience in my opinion. Take it to court but write a letter to relevant authority making representations to have the matter withdrawn first is how I would go about it (law enforcement background. There may be some precedent regarding the implied intent of the legislation. What a ******* to write you up. Law abiding people get used as a whipping post to justify gov't jobs.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I don't think Officer Fish Cop would haul you off if the barrel was stamped ".40 Cal" Or even if you explained you were using a 0.395" ball and cloth patch. That rounds to 0.40"

 

[Thing]

Unortunaately, it states a bullet of 40 diameter or larger. Nothing about a 395 ball becoming 40 cal with a patch around it. The key is the 40 diameter bullet or larger. This would indicate a true 40 round ball in a caliber of say 41 or 42 or 45 and upward. Apparently the state wants a true 40 dimeter ball as the minimum projectile.
You will lose this case in court and have to spend extra money fighting a lost cause. Pay the fine and chalk it up as a lesson in life. It does not make you a bad person or irresponsible hunter. Anyone can make the same mistake and I am sure many have. (Retired CO}

 

[longcruise]

This type of case usually can be pled down if you leave it right up to the court date. IOW, plead "not guilty" and ask for a trial by court (no jury). Show up early for court and expect the DA to be confused about the law. The DA will probably offer you a plea. They often do this just to save themselves time and trouble. After all, a plea chalks up as a "win" for them without having to spend the time before the court.

I would also research the intent of the rules. Remember, the brochure or syllabus or whatever you may wish to call it is a summary of the law. In CO, for instance, the regs brochure plainly states that it is a summary and not the law per se. I have compared sections of our small game "laws" in the brochure with the actual statutes and found them to differ on some things. You might find that the actual statute does not refer to "bullet" but rather to caliber.

Also, remember, that even if you find yourself to be clearly in the wrong, it may still be worth your while to stand before a judge and explain your case. That's why the trial by court. You are not incurring cost to yourself or the court for a jury. You are simply saying that you are willing to let the judge decide. (most judges realize you are placing your case in their hands and are inclined to deal with some leniance). The judge might dismiss it altogether if the law seems at all vague to him/her.

If you are wondering how I seem to know so much about this, well....dont ask! :haha:

 

[longcruise]

So, I looked up the published regs on the Kansas site and found this:

MUZZLELOADERS
Muzzleloading rifles, pistols or muskets that can be loaded only through the front of the firing chamber with separate components and that fire a bullet of .40 inches diameter or larger. Only hard-cast solid lead, conical lead, or saboted bullets may be used with muzzleloading rifles, pistols and muskets. Handguns may be possessed during big game muzzleloader only seasons but may not be used to take big game unless they are muzzleloading handguns.

The red is a highlight by me. If these regs are correct and accurate, your problem may have been the use of a round ball when a conical is required! :shocked2: Still worth pursueing the facts, IMO.

 

[Thing]

Only hard-cast solid lead, conical lead, or saboted bullets may be used

I would think the first type Hard Cast Lead would indicate a round ball. Conical lead, and saboted are two other types.. As I stated in my earlier post. The .40 Diameter bullet or ball is the issue here. Personaly I would have not have issued a summons . Perhaps a warning and proper instructions to the hunter in question. Depending on attitude and demeanor.

 

[Lonegun1894]

Have you slugged your bore so you can tell the judge the measurements across both the lands and grooves? I bet the bore across the lands is .40", but the measurement across the grooves is going to necessarily be larger. When you seat the ball, it "may" expand slightly when you seat it since you are seating it with some force to make sure there is no airspace, which could pose a safety issue for you and fellow hunters in your shrapnel range. I know, I know, work with me here. We're trying to get you the benefit of the doubt. So your slightly expanded ball (due to the seating) is sitting on top of your powder, and you fire it. The kick in the pants from the high pressures of being fired further expands the ball to your groove diameter, (I mean, how strong can a piece of cloth be, right?) which is over .40", making your gun and load combination perfectly legal. If the judge doesn't believe you, bring a ball or 3 to show him that they are round, then drop them from shoulder height on a hard surface, show him the flat spot, and have him tell you that it will not expand from 20-30K lbs worth of pressure hitting it upon firing. I mean, how can the judge argue with physics when you show him the proof right there in his own court room?

And yes, I know that those of us that use these things know better and would probably have a hard time keeping a straight face with this, but, dang it, you acted in the belief that you were following the law, and your "bullet" expands to well over what the law requires, and in fact, starts expanding before it even leaves the gun. If that ain't following the law, I don't know what is.

Hey, it's worth a shot.

 

[silly goose]

On its face, you were in violation, that part is clear. Nobody else was there so we are not familiar with the totality of the circumstance.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with admitting you made a mistake and asking the DA/court for leniency. Often times they can just make it go away if you are not a repeat offender.

Man up and take your lump. Putting on a show may be considered disrespectful, depending on how you go about it.

 

[Tony Logan]

Take it to court,let a judge decide, even if they threaten to put you in jail for 6 months,(like the DA told me, over a short fish :cursing: ) just wait til the last minute and feel it out. Be respectful and honest,the fish and game officers bring them all kinds of crap every month, most pay it and go on. you might even bring some recovered round balls and educate the judge and game officer that the ball would expand to well beyond 40 cal. You might get out of the court costs at best and still pay the fine. what have you got to lose.

 

[dbutch]

Pay the fine..and move on. .395 is not .400 period.
Its not worth getting all twisted over..
Buy a 45 cal and use it there next time...
Keep it fun!

 

[brubincam]

sounds like one of obama tricks

 

[Kylongrifle]

Personaly I would have not have issued a summons . Perhaps a warning and proper instructions to the hunter in question. Depending on attitude and demeanor.

Im retired law enforcement and am friends with a lot of CO's..I can honestly with some measure of certainty that all of the ones I know would not have issued a ticket on this..Maybe a young officer full of piss and vinegar but most with some miles on their boots wouldent have blinked at it..Unless a person had givin them a reason to e picky..Though that's always up to the individual officer. Some are more lenient that others.
I hate that for you, I hope everything go's ok with it :thumbsup: Honestly, Id just pay it and move on..Though I wouldent blame you if you decided to question it too.

 

[54ball]

Got to love GWs. Was this the same one you went hunting with?
I know of one who watched a mother and her 5 y/o son fish in a local creek for over an hour. When the little boy finally needed help casting his kiddie rod and reel. He cited her for fishing without a license. That joker could not get out of his truck fast enough with ticket book in hand.

They got you. Forget the Matlock stuff and pay the fine. It's obvious that this guy knows that most muzzleloaders require a smaller than caliber ball.

I could load .457 revolver balls in my .45 in a pinch. I think you can do that with the smaller calibers. It may be worth a shot to try .40s in that .40. Once it's started it should load pretty easily.

 

[BillinOregon]

I would certainly talk to the judge -- and to my state legislators. Being cited over a .005 difference sounds like a lot of crap, as does the ridiculous requirement for a hard-cast projectile. What genius wrote this particular statute? He or she sure didn't know anything about muzzleloaders.
Finally the diameter of your round ball very likely exceeds .40 once it exits your barrel.

 

[Vaino]

How did the arresting officer know that you were using .395 PRBs,...did you incriminate yourself? Don't think this officer carries a micrometer. Or as someone stated....are only conicals, etc. allowed.

Somehow the impression persists "did this really happen?".....Fred

 

[Kapow]

I feel your pain. This month alone a local council ranger wanted to fine me for "camping" illegally. I was exhausted after a 12hour drive and crawled into the back of the car at 1am for a sleep. He waited until morning before approaching me and said that he had seen me there all night. I asked him why he didn't move me on when he first saw me rather than allow me to commit the 'offence'.

Then a week later a fisheries officer wanted to fine me for not having the right brand EPIRB on my boat. I mean seriously, come on. If attitude counted for anything I should have been fined as I didn't hold back on either of them.

But for these little legends in their own lunchtimes that hold these offices, that may be the most exciting thing that happens in their sad little lives. What really gets the steam coming out their ears is when I pat them on the arm and say "never mind pal, maybe you'll pass the Police exam next year." :grin: :blah:

I would still write a respectful letter to the department explaining the confusion, showing complicity the whole way and request the matter be withdrawn on the grounds of common sense and widespread confusion. Maybe show them how thin 0.05" is with a piece of cigarette paper included in the letter.

I would be very wary of turning up in Court in this day and age with any form of lead or other projectile on your person. The novelty of the Beverly Hill Billies died last century.

Good luck whatever you decide to do. There are no shortage of bush lawyers on here!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

It's obvious that this guy knows that most muzzleloaders require a smaller than caliber ball.

I will bet that he was told that any rifle marked .40 caliber, or anybody saying they were using a .40 caliber gets a ticket. I'm still an LEO and the details in the training of the youngsters are getting these days is truly shameful. Even the older officers are simply given "rules of thumb" in some cases. So he might simply have been told, "Write anybody using something less than a .45 as the next size down rifle is too small", while we know that some of the older .44 rifles out there are still in compliance.

How did the arresting officer know that you were using .395 PRBs,...did you incriminate yourself? Don't think this officer carries a micrometer.

I wonder if the officer actually kept the bullet from within the rifle, or simply asked you the size? Or did he just assume that as you told him it was a .40 it was undersized? In my state I'd have to show that you had an undersized ball by keeping one of your loose ball as an example, and having had it measured. "Well he said it was X size" would not fly in court here in Maryland.

Or as someone stated....are only conicals, etc. allowed.

I don't think a conical would help. It's not based on the length or the weight... the diameter must be at least .40 caliber. A 200 grain .395 diameter conical would still be a no no.

You say you were in violation. Your choice as it was a mistake and not intentional if you want to check to see if the officer actually did any investigation or made a huge assumption, and to fight it, especially if the penalty is expensive.

After all... a .44 revolver shoots a .454 ball, so without inspection of the actual rounds or the round in the rifle, how did the officer know you hadn't pounded a .400 ball onto the lands and into the grooves of your rifle?

LD

 

[zimmerstutzen]

This is where my vocation comes in. You stated that it must fire a ball at least .40 in diameter. Your .395 ball need only obturate 5 thousandths of an inch, either on loading, or upon firing to increase to .40. This is one case where what is loaded in may not be what comes out.

I don't know if a hard cast ball means a 1:20 alloy meets the definition, but such a ball also obturates. I certainly could have a lot of fun trying the case. IS the officer a firearms expert, would he qualify as a ballistics expert, does he even know what obturation is? Did he measure a ball that was fired out, can he testify that the force of ignition would not swell the ball by a mere 5 thousandths of an inch, etc. What was the measurement of the land to land diameter, the groove to groove diameter.

I'd show him a diagram from a firearms book about a belted ball and ask if it is measured around the belt or the other way? Then for a Whitworth hexagonal bore bullet. Across the flats or the corners. And then ask him if the ball fired would be measured across the points where it swelled into the grooves or where it was compressed between the lands. Did he rule out that your gun did not have the breech in which the ball loaded against a post and then was bumped with the ram rod to swell it up into the rifling.

Shame you are so far away, I'd do it for free.

 

[cynthialee]

Take it to court and request the state provide an exact measurement of the projectile in question.