-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Be Aware
- Thread starter stinkyfeet
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
longcruise
70 Cal.
Looks to me like they want a .40 cal. Still looks like they do not want a prb!
I'd take it to the Judge...and as others have stated.. be respectful. I bet you'll prevail.
Patocazador
54 Cal.
S.kenton said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.
I doubt that the judge is a muzzleloader, if he is so much the better. Take a photo of your gun showing ".40 CALIBER" and he will probably cuss out the LEO ..if he shows up.
The LEO is a jerk. :barf:
If the BULLET has to be 40 caliber, then when used in a sabot the bore would have to be 45 or 50 caliber- large enough for a sabot with a 40 caliber bullet? Confusing to say the least.
A lot of field officers aren't very good on the fine points. I try to email my wildlife dept on regulations and then copy their email to me and carry it with me in the field. If a field officer says I'm wrong I'll pull out the email and show I asked headquarters and they said "Okay".
Examples: "No centerfire rifles"- a lot of officers think that means "shotguns only" and if you have a muzzle loader- could be a problem.
A lot of field officers aren't very good on the fine points. I try to email my wildlife dept on regulations and then copy their email to me and carry it with me in the field. If a field officer says I'm wrong I'll pull out the email and show I asked headquarters and they said "Okay".
Examples: "No centerfire rifles"- a lot of officers think that means "shotguns only" and if you have a muzzle loader- could be a problem.
robinsroost
50 Cal.
Do not pay the ticket without going to court. I am a retired LEO, and my advice is to play the game. If the arresting officer does not appear in court, the charge will be dismissed. If he is there, when you get there, you can still make a deal with the prosicuter, if that is your desire. In every state, that I am aware of, a muzzleloader is not considered a firearm, unless it is used in the commission of a crime. If this is the case, in your state, I would consider taking your rifle to court, to show the judge that it is a .40 caliber.......Robin
Last edited by a moderator:
I'd FOR SURE announce that you are bringing it in to the courtroom...and make it known that it is unloaded.....Deputy Dog said:
Last edited by a moderator:
zimmerstutzen
70 Cal.
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2009
- Messages
- 5,848
- Reaction score
- 1,213
In this area, just carrying a gun near a courthouse could result in charges of creating a public disturbance. Call the court first, explain that you want to bring it as evidence and can you bring the unloaded gun to the door and have a deputy Sheriff or bailiff take the gun the rest of the way for you.
Whether you need the gun at all is another question.
In PA the regulation now expressly says the GUN must be a certain caliber or larger for deer. Many years ago, the regulation required the gun to propel a 44 caliber or larger projectile.
As I understand it the issue is the size of the ball, not the caliber of the gun.
Get a digital micrometer or vernier caliper and see if simply dropping the ball on a hard surface causes the ball to flatten out slightly, and bump out beyond the .40 requirement.
What exactly is the statute or regulation you allegedly violated? Not the digest or summary they give out but the actual language of the statute or regulation.
Whether you need the gun at all is another question.
In PA the regulation now expressly says the GUN must be a certain caliber or larger for deer. Many years ago, the regulation required the gun to propel a 44 caliber or larger projectile.
As I understand it the issue is the size of the ball, not the caliber of the gun.
Get a digital micrometer or vernier caliper and see if simply dropping the ball on a hard surface causes the ball to flatten out slightly, and bump out beyond the .40 requirement.
What exactly is the statute or regulation you allegedly violated? Not the digest or summary they give out but the actual language of the statute or regulation.
Walks with fire
54 Cal.
PA law say's 44 caliber not .44 caliber. So is a .429 44 caliber bullet legal? Same issue; it should be but it probably isn't. I use .452 45 calibers and often wondered if a 44 caliber bullet at .429/.430 is legal or not.
If there is a .40 caliber then your guilty but if it states 40 I think your legal.
Just an opinion but courts have their own way of doing things.
If there is a .40 caliber then your guilty but if it states 40 I think your legal.
Just an opinion but courts have their own way of doing things.
Howdy 2tall,
After reading the KS muzzeloader regs. it looks like an up hill battle. The regs states .40 inch projectile diameter not .40 or 40cal. It is certainly worth going to court if you have time and throughing yourself on the mercy of the court(something I had to do a couple times in my youth)but I think the wording has got you hung. Here in WI, our reg states min of 40 cal in rifled barrel or 45 in smooth bore. The diference seems to be that your gun would be legle here with its .005 undersize projectile but in your state, your 40 cal rifle with its less then .40inch projectile is illegal. More likely a poorly writen law that may or may not have correctly expressed the intent to have 40cal as a menimum caliber but based on the language, I feel they got you where the tick had the bull so take your check book and your best sinse of humor on court day.
Hope a clear head prevales and you get a break on the ticket but till the language is changed, sounds like the minimum cal is larger then 40 cal.
Best of luck,
Tom
After reading the KS muzzeloader regs. it looks like an up hill battle. The regs states .40 inch projectile diameter not .40 or 40cal. It is certainly worth going to court if you have time and throughing yourself on the mercy of the court(something I had to do a couple times in my youth)but I think the wording has got you hung. Here in WI, our reg states min of 40 cal in rifled barrel or 45 in smooth bore. The diference seems to be that your gun would be legle here with its .005 undersize projectile but in your state, your 40 cal rifle with its less then .40inch projectile is illegal. More likely a poorly writen law that may or may not have correctly expressed the intent to have 40cal as a menimum caliber but based on the language, I feel they got you where the tick had the bull so take your check book and your best sinse of humor on court day.
Hope a clear head prevales and you get a break on the ticket but till the language is changed, sounds like the minimum cal is larger then 40 cal.
Best of luck,
Tom
galamb
58 Cal.
I would suggest that the law was probably not written as such to somehow restrict a traditional muzzle loader from using a PRB in a 40 cal rifle, but to prevent a "modern" from shooting a plastic enclosed .357 from a 45 cal that "lacks a side hammer".
Given that in any given patch of woods during the "charcoal season", save the couple of jurisdictions that specify flintlocks, there are far more "zip guns" than side hammers...
Given that in any given patch of woods during the "charcoal season", save the couple of jurisdictions that specify flintlocks, there are far more "zip guns" than side hammers...
It would certainly be interesting to really have an obturated .395 round ball to see what the measurement, as shot, would be. Too bad you don't have access to that gel one can shoot into so you would have a "clean" ball to measure that wasn't damaged by shooting into something that would possibly cause damage, thus invalidating the measurement. I'd then use that ball (provided it was .40 or greater)to show technical compliance.
You haven't mentioned what the max penalty is for the violation. If it's a small monetary fine and no loss of hunting privileges, maybe a fight isn't worth it. If you go to court and lose, do you have to pay court costs? If it's a larger penalty, then with something you could win, it might be worth putting your case before the judge and hope he/she sees merit in your argument.
In your case, you may not technically be guilty if the gun only has to FIRE a .40 cal projectile because (assuming enough obturation)as soon as the charge goes off, the gun is firing a .40"+ projectile.
You haven't mentioned what the max penalty is for the violation. If it's a small monetary fine and no loss of hunting privileges, maybe a fight isn't worth it. If you go to court and lose, do you have to pay court costs? If it's a larger penalty, then with something you could win, it might be worth putting your case before the judge and hope he/she sees merit in your argument.
In your case, you may not technically be guilty if the gun only has to FIRE a .40 cal projectile because (assuming enough obturation)as soon as the charge goes off, the gun is firing a .40"+ projectile.
Gotta say it all boils down to how the warden or judge interpret ".40 inch diameter or larger". It's going to be a manure-shoot on whether it's worth fighting in court or not. Isn't quite like a traffic ticket where asking for a jury trial puts the odds on your side the LEO won't show up and it gets tossed. Think the advise about possibly checking with the judge or attorney is worth pursuing, just don't know if it'll be worth your while!
Would "mens rea" play a part. Ie, guilty mind? It is the basis of guilt in English based law, I am wondering what relevance it has in the USA? In other words did you intentionally do the wrong thing? It could well be argued that the law is poorly written given the common sizes of roundball calibres. Shame lawyers are so expensive. Even when you win, you lose. What about an online petition?
Look on the bright side. The Aussies are beating the Poms at cricket. :v
Look on the bright side. The Aussies are beating the Poms at cricket. :v
zimmerstutzen
70 Cal.
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2009
- Messages
- 5,848
- Reaction score
- 1,213
Walks, the current PA regulation for deer states the muzzleloading RIFLE must be 44 caliber or larger. A muzzle loading pistol must be 50 or larger. Unlike years ago, the regulation no longer specifies the size of the projectile. The PGC does address the weight of the projectile for muzzle loading pistols in the Elk regulations. But there is currently nothing in the Deer regulations that says a 50 caliber pistol must shoot a certain size bullet. It could be a sabot with a 40 caliber bullet under the current law. 15-20 years ago, the regulation specified a minimum size projectile(44 caliber ball)
The OP is facing a minimum projectile regulation in which his unloaded ball was .395, or 5 thousandths of an inch too small. What it is after being started down the bore, and or fired is entirely possible to be a larger diameter than it started.
Just as I use a .454 ball in my cap and ball revolver, loading shaves a few thousandths off the ball, so it is no longer a 454 ball. When it is fired and hit the forcing cone, it is swaged into yet another diameter, and when it hits, can smash itself into a much larger diameter object.
The OP said the projectile fired must be 40 caliber. Whether the 395 ball is smashed into the rifling leaving the groove to groove diameter larger than .395 is entirely likley. The ball is probably subject to another reshaping on the force of ignition, which means, the ball is very likley to measure .400 or better when it leaves the muzzle exit.
The OP is facing a minimum projectile regulation in which his unloaded ball was .395, or 5 thousandths of an inch too small. What it is after being started down the bore, and or fired is entirely possible to be a larger diameter than it started.
Just as I use a .454 ball in my cap and ball revolver, loading shaves a few thousandths off the ball, so it is no longer a 454 ball. When it is fired and hit the forcing cone, it is swaged into yet another diameter, and when it hits, can smash itself into a much larger diameter object.
The OP said the projectile fired must be 40 caliber. Whether the 395 ball is smashed into the rifling leaving the groove to groove diameter larger than .395 is entirely likley. The ball is probably subject to another reshaping on the force of ignition, which means, the ball is very likley to measure .400 or better when it leaves the muzzle exit.
stinkyfeet
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2012
- Messages
- 1,008
- Reaction score
- 1
Ok to clarify for everyone I was honest and up front with the Game Warden (military game warden. He asked what caliber my flinter was and I told him 40 caliber then he asked what sized bullet it shot. I was honest and showed him a round ball and said its a .395 diameter ball and discussed the entire patch size combo for it. His supervisor showed up on scene and looked over everything and told me I was getting issued a ticket. He flat out asked me is I knew the caliber restriction for a muzzleloader and I told him 40 caliber or larger then he pulled out the rule book and showed me where it said 40 caliber bullet or larger. I was not rude at all with either gentleman. The biggest issue was it happened on a military base which means its a federal offense and tried by the military court system. Luckily my Commander is a big muzzleloader guy himself and thinks its garbage and to fight it and explained it to the higher brass that I was not trying to break the law at all and that its a poorly written rule. The biggest issue is I cant hunt on base until the issue goes to court no matter the plea guilty or innocent I still have to go to court. My commander will be going with me as a character witness and offer his intereptation of the rule as well. It goes to court on Friday (Tomorrow) I will let you know how it goes.
Does it have to be .40 at loading or .40 when it smacks into Bambi?
Because a .395 lead roundball is going to be a bit larger than .40 by the time it hits a critter.
Because a .395 lead roundball is going to be a bit larger than .40 by the time it hits a critter.
stinkyfeet
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2012
- Messages
- 1,008
- Reaction score
- 1
IDK prolly both I am done pretending I know the law anymoreCynthialee said:
Similar threads
