Belgian Made Trade Gun?

[poordevil]

FWIIW The wood looks much too good to be turn of the century. Same with the metal. So it may just work very well.

P

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Probably made in the late 1950s or early 1960s to grab newbies in the budding American muzzleloading sport. The older guns were made better and finished better. The late guns were a cynical effort to snag the unwary and/or the inexperienced. Perhaps it still works today....

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

I posted pictures of one of these several months ago. It was in a pawn shop inventory. This one was older and rougher looking but it looked shootable. I asked around and the going "value" back then was $125-$150. I offered $200 just so I could see the look on Manyklatches face when I showed up with it at our next smoothbore outing!

It sold for $500 at a gun show. Getting one up on Manyklatch was not worth that much to me!

One of the pictures I posted showed the muzzle with a quarter next to it!

I seen one at Friendship in June but they wanted
$550 for it. I think the novelty of this beast
has outstripped it actual worth.

Still like to have one!!!! :bow:

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm not as picky as most when it comes to fit and finish, but it looks reasonably good to me. It's a little crude I suppose. And weird.

 

[tmdreb]

I saw this for sale a couple months ago or so. They wanted $650, so they're beginning to realize it's not as much as they'd like.

Some of these are kinda neat looking, but the sellers always seem to overestimate their value. However, if people keep buying them.....

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

First uttered in reference to the Cardiff Giant Hoax and mis-attributed to P. T. Barnum, the phrase "There's a sucker born every minute" can also be applied to those willing to pay several times what a item is worth. Sometimes after they've been told they're about to be ripped off. Still gullibility is a very valuable commodity to some--for example, the last presidential election couldn't have taken place without bucket loads of it.

 

[Cosmoline]

What are you seeing in the fit and finish of this one that seems substandard? The barrel looks impressive enough.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

These guns themselves are completely substandard. Everything about them was as cheap as it could possibly be made. The original target market had no choice--this was the only sort of gun they were allowed to own. The Belgians simply used up their supply of cheap parts on the guns they sent here. One look at that lock should be warning enough to any experienced muzzleloader. I'm not sure what is impressive about the barrel. Aesthetically it's a zero but that's usual with these guns. It has a big bore but that's pretty much useless most places and other than that it's a straight pipe turned round with an octagon section at the breech with a poor transition to the round section--it appears as if it may be a step down to the round portion. They didn't last long here because people back then either knew what they were or figured it out quickly.

A new generation has come along and apparently either believes these things are real antiques or that there is some mystique attached to them. Anyone who pays that kind of money for one of these deserves what he gets.

 

[Muskeg Stomper]

Alaska hunting regulations state that muzzleloaders may not be used for big game hunting unless they are "at least .45 cal or larger with a rifled or smooth bore barrel and discharges a single projectile."

HOWEVER

The regulations also state that you MAY NOT use a "...shotgun larger than 10 gauge".

I've seen lots of uneven enforcement up here and I'd advise you to get a legal opinion before hunting as to whether a smooth bore muzzleloader is considered a "shotgun" if it's only loaded with a single projectile.

If you are just looking for a large bore purely for self defense and not hunting, I'd advise sticking with a modern cartridge gun anyhow.

I know nothing about the quality of Africa trade guns. Post more pictures if you have any. While Russ is real vocal about the quality of those guns, maybe others like Mike Brooks have more information to offer. I wouldn't mind hearing what all have to say, both negative and positive. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Cosmoline]

I get the sense that Russ is down on these, though he is extremely subtle :grin: But on balance I don't like the idea of a barrel that may blow up on me. Cheap parts and 8 bore are a bad combo, so I'll stay clear of it. I've got my .450 Marlin and that works fine, it's just not a flintlock. I'll keep poking around with the parts sets in the mean time. Maybe there's a combination that will work well enough.

I've seen lots of uneven enforcement up here and I'd advise you to get a legal opinion before hunting as to whether a smooth bore muzzleloader is considered a "shotgun" if it's only loaded with a single projectile.

No worries there, I am a lawyer. But I am leaning towards rifling for other reasons.

 

[texcl]

There is a an original Barnett London 10 Bore Rifle on one of those auction sites for buy it now $998, it would be alot better rifle than that trade gun, plus you might get your money out of it if you decide to sell. It's percussion though.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Cosmoline-I have tried to be charitable in regard to these firearms and their quality. I hope that I haven't given anyone the idea that I find them less than satisfactory in any aspect. For example, I would think that these muskets would be splendid main battle weapons for the North Korean military or the Cuban Army. I think that everyone who wants one should own one, price being of no consequence for such a treasure.

As a further enticement, let me point out that they were available in several bore sizes up to and including 4 bore, and in several stylish colors, though red was by far the most popular. Different buttplates were available--some quite bizarre (or sylish, if you prefer)when seen on this sort of firearm. No two were exactly alike, due to the assortment of parts available, and the workers' penchant for long and leisurely lunches with lots of wine and beer being consumed. This resulted in widely varying styles of muskets and the accidental construction of the occasional steam locomotive or choo-choos as they are referred to in that part of the country. In any case these now precious relics of a bygone era (the muskets, not the choo-choos) are sometimes availble available today at utterly exhorbitant prices, and should be snapped up before sanity returns and prices drop to a rational level.

Personally, I'm holding out for a 4 bore with one of the really bogus two piece back action flintlocks in a nice if not subtle pea green. I'm hoping to over pay by at least four times its actual worth as I want to be as trendy as the next guy. Not sure if I have enough ovine tendencies in me to pull that off, though. I'll give it my best shot as it seems to be a most important quality in being a good American these days.

 

Cosmoline-I have tried to be charitable in regard to these firearms and their quality. I hope that I haven't given anyone the idea that I find them less than satisfactory in any aspect. For example, I would think that these muskets would be splendid main battle weapons for the North Korean military or the Cuban Army. I think that everyone who wants one should own one, price being of no consequence for such a treasure.

As a further enticement, let me point out that they were available in several bore sizes up to and including 4 bore, and in several stylish colors, though red was by far the most popular. Different buttplates were available--some quite bizarre (or sylish, if you prefer)when seen on this sort of firearm. No two were exactly alike, due to the assortment of parts available, and the workers' penchant for long and leisurely lunches with lots of wine and beer being consumed. This resulted in widely varying styles of muskets and the accidental construction of the occasional steam locomotive or choo-choos as they are referred to in that part of the country. In any case these now precious relics of a bygone era (the muskets, not the choo-choos) are sometimes availble available today at utterly exhorbitant prices, and should be snapped up before sanity returns and prices drop to a rational level.

Personally, I'm holding out for a 4 bore with one of the really bogus two piece back action flintlocks in a nice if not subtle pea green. I'm hoping to over pay by at least four times its actual worth as I want to be as trendy as the next guy. Not sure if I have enough ovine tendencies in me to pull that off, though. I'll give it my best shot as it seems to be a most important quality in being a good American these days.

I have to hand it to you, that's the longest post containing nothing that I've seen to date. You sure like to hear your own sarcasm. :wink: :applause:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Don't be silly Carl. You can't hear a post. At least normal folk can't. I forgot for a moment who I was responding to. But thanks for sharing, although there wasn't all that much meaningful content in your post--as per usual.

 

Don't be silly Carl. You can't hear a post. At least normal folk can't.

Not funny or accurate. (insert foot here) :rotf:

hear |hi(É™)r|
verb
Ӣ perceive with the ear the sound made by (someone or something)
Ӣ be told or informed of (verbally, or in writing)
Ӣ [ intrans. ] ( have heard of) be aware of; know of the existence of..

 

[Claude Mathis]

Don't be silly Carl. You can't hear a post. At least normal folk can't.

Not funny or accurate. (insert foot here) :rotf:

hear |hi(É™)r|
verb
Ӣ perceive with the ear the sound made by (someone or something)
Ӣ be told or informed of (verbally, or in writing)
Ӣ [ intrans. ] ( have heard of) be aware of; know of the existence of..

Both of you, enough! Drop it.

 

[Bullmoose]

Yes it is up for sell again and it is 585 and about 50 to ship. this is a very cheap made gun and look at ther lock again in the picture, the "square" pin is already worn and looks like cheap metal or poorly made, also take a look at the butt plate, it is not fitted right, and also take a look at the ramming rod it is thin and shows a strange flat top, and not a good rammer. I like the gun and the look but it is way way way to much money, looks like a $300 piece to me including free shipping.

 

[DrLaw]

No worries there, I am a lawyer.

You too? :bow: :youcrazy:

BTW, I would have steered clear of this one (the gun), too.

The Doc is out now. :v

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

One of these Belgian made gems just sold for $182.00 on Gunbroker. Apparently there are still a few knowledgeable/sane buyers out there.

 

[Rod Lassey]

My, I go away from the forum for a few days, and all sorts of things happen, including a reprimand from Claude.

First off, for those that don't think the price of semi-junky trade guns is going up, check out the prices of Long Danes as compared to just a few years ago. I'm even seeing a rise in the prices of those Arab/Persian flinters that couldn't be given away earlier. If you think the quality of the Belgian guns are bad, check out some of those some time--especially the 'Khyber Pass specials'. I wouldn't pull the trigger on one of those on a bet. Especially after the penchant of the former users for pulling apart surplus 7.62mm ammo to use the powder. :shocked2:

As for the other comments, my Belgian Flemish [Vlaanderen] ancestry forces me to reply to the quality issue. Lest anyone think from reading the above posts that all Belgian guns are utter manure, pick up any FN49, FN-FAL, or Browning gun, and compare the quality to any other comparable gun out there. And, by the way, the gun makers didn't assemble locomotives, and no, they aren't called 'choo-choos' in "that part of the country".

Gunmaking, for the cheap guns, was a cottage industry in Belgium, much like Spain, where a guy in a home workshop makes one part, another guy in his home makes another part, etc. The parts are shipped to a central assembly plant and put together there. Depending on where the parts came from, this can and did lead to some rather startling assemblies. Remember that these guns were being built for a wholesaler, and built to a specific price. Cutting corners to meet that price is to be expected. By the way, Great Britain used a similar scheme for the assembly of SMLE's during the Great War, so it's not just a Continental thing.

As for the gun in question, I do think it's currently over priced, which may or may not hold true in the future. The faux Miquelet lock was produced for the North African trade, although the gun may have been assembled with an eye to the North American decorator market.

And finally, as for myself, I'm just attracted to trade guns of any sort---my tastes are more towards NW guns, fusils du traite, Carolina guns and the sort, but I find them all interesting.

Rod