Best Makers?

[Wolfe1]

I am new to the world of muzzleloaders. I have always enjoyed shooting my Italian made "Hawken", but now that I am retired I decided to take more interest. I found several Muzzleloading forums about 1 1/2 years ago, and have spent endless hours reading posts ranging back many years. I would like to get a feel for what is what before I plunge to deeply into this. I have discovered that the rifles with the most appeal to me are those that carry great carving and engraving. Having searched out websites of as many makers as I can locate, I have found a few that create the work I would truly appreciate owning. Taylor Sapergia is the only Canadian maker I have been able to locate. I was lucky enough to purchase a rifle from Bill Shipman. It is an absolutely stunning piece with perfect inletting, carving and engraving. I feel lucky to own it. Jud Brennan makes some amazing rifles, though "aged" pieces do not usually appeal to me, I do like his work. Unfortunately it is virtually impossible to obtain one of his rifles, at least directly from him.
I would love to see some suggestions of who some other highly regarded makers are. I hope it is ok to ask this type of question here.

Wolfgang

 

[hanshi]

Yes, it is okay to ask these questions. The answer to them (your specific) is $$$$$. Time was when materials were costly and labor was cheap. Nowadays it's the reverse of that. A very fine, but unadorned, rifle is quite reasonably priced. But add just a LITTLE carving/engraving and costs go through the roof! It's easy to end up spending much more for just the embellishments than for the rifle.

We are fortunate in that there are a good number of builders who do the superior work you describe. Here in Va we have a large basket of them. Canada? I don't know. Yes, Taylor Sapergia is a master of these builds; but outside of him, well....... :idunno: .

 

[Rifleman1776]

What Hanshi said is right on.
Personally, I avoid trying to answer "best" questions. The answer is in the eyes of the beholder. Do contact several builders. And, a word of caution :nono: whoever you talk to, ask if they do their own work. There are those who take your money then farm out the project to others, sometimes with dissapointing results.

 

[Blackbruin]

You'll have a 4 year or so wait, But I would put Alan Martin right up there, he certainly can make more than just a lehigh, and is a down to earth nice guy. I am fortunate that he is close by to where I live!

 

[nwtradegun]

here is a list builders who are contemporary long rifle members. http://longrifle.com/artisans/artisanlist.asp?membersonly=yes#Longrifles,

 

[rich pierce]

I would go to different guys depending on what I wanted. I wouldn't ask Allen Martin to build a Hawken or Ian Pratt to build a Fordney, though both could if they set their minds to it.

 

[bearbullets]

I know a guy who makes them very well though he likes them plain. He made me a nice pistol and I appreciate that he is the only maker Ive known who takes payments on his customs.

 

[Wolfe1]

here is a list builders who are contemporary long rifle members. http://longrifle.com/artisans/artisanlist.asp?membersonly=yes#Longrifles,[/quote]
Thank you for the list. I will work my way trough it. Unfortunately many of the makers on there do not list a website. So it takes a bit of searching for examples of their work.
Maybe my wording in referring to the "best" was poor. Coming from a world of custom knives as a maker, I know that some makers are highly regarded for their workmanship. Others are regarded as "blue chip" collectables, not always for quality work. I also appreciate the fact that embellished pieces will command a premium price, I am willing to pay for the time, experience and skill that goes into a finely made rifle. If the work is immaculate, it will be a joy every time I pick it up. Compared to custom knives, these scratch build rifles are a bargain considering the amount of work and knowledge needed to create quality work.
I have looked at Allen Martins work, it is very well done indeed. Unfortunately I like my guns to look like they were made yesterday, which in fact they were. Antique guns would have looked that way when they were handed over to the customer. I can appreciate the aged look, and realize that it is popular, just not for me. This somewhat limits the makers that appeal to me. As in custom knives, long waiting times from well regarded makers is just a fact of life, I can accept that.
I do read almost all the posts in the flintlock section of this forum. It is always a pleasure to read posts by members who are very excited about their new pieces, plain or fancy. Searching for just the right rifle or maker is one of the pleasures in this hobby.
Wolfgang

 

[bpd303]

I would recommend going to the Gun Builders Bench section, if you want an idea on builds.

 

[Col. Batguano]

You might consider piecing some of the work out too. Very often great rifle builders are not great engravers. Like any skill, you need to do it alot to stay in practice.

The time that can be taken up in carving and engraving a rifle far exceeds what it takes to get it ready for that aspect. With the fanciest of fancy maple stock you'll be around $2000-$2500 to get it to the engrave and carve stage. It would not be impossible to add another $40-80,000 in engraving, metal inlaying and carving beyond that.

I suggest you take up building them yourself. while your first efforts won't be what you want to wind up with, if you keep at it, you'll be able to get there, and learn a lot along the way. And, obtain a lot of historical knowledge in your research when you really examine all the little bitty details that you wouldn't notice if you just bought the finished piece.

 

[galamb]

Wolfgang, if you have a Bill Shipman rifle that is pretty close to the top of the pile - to say his work is "stunning" is a gross understatement.

If you are looking for another Canadian builder then I suggest you contact Peter Alexander (The Gunsmith of Grenville County), in this case "Grenville County" is in "Ontario".

He is a premier builder, Canadian or otherwise, even did a stint as a gun builder at Colonial Williamsburg (that's a pretty select group).

I have handled a number of his rifles (live the next county over from him) and his quality is at least on par with Bill's and Taylor's work, if not a little above (without insulting anyone or starting an argument).

His work does go at a premium compared to the other two (6K is a good starting point and he only builds flintlocks to avoid PAL/gun licence issues), but if you are looking for that "special" rifle.........

(a pair of used rifles he built were recently listed on the CLA website for 11K, so they hold their value for sure)

 

[Archer 756]

:thumbsup: Its a same that you can not come down in July to Dixon and see "the best of the best"

 

[Coot]

If you are considering spending a fair amount on a gun, I would suggest that you "invest" some time & cash to see the CLA show in Lexington, KY (Aug 15-16). Pictures are nice but to see & be able to handle a large selection in person is worth a lot. You would then be in a much better position to evaluate builders and prices.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Taylor's work would probably be tops for Canadian builders if voted by his peers of equal. Shipman is top shelf in America. Asking those top builders whose guns they admire would be the best bet for beginning your quest.
Plenty of carved and engraved guns that get kudos from the masses but not a second look from the cream of the crop.

 

[BigBoreBLR]

Ever considered something hybrid.

Build the basic rifle yourself and have a local guy fancy it up a bit.

Maybe a local furniture builder, or carver of other items rather than guns.

Have the metal parts done by an engraver.

Just a outside the box thought.

I am starting my 1st build and I wanted to do the majority of the work myself.

However, places like dunlap woodcrafts, TVM, tack of thr wolf, and probably a few other have most of the hard work done.

Just a thought here.

As for myself, I like fancy carving over fancy metal inlays.

Far as specialty inlay ideas, there are people who make custom metal pieces not commonly seen for that more custom look.

Something you make yourself is very satisfying.

I got s brand new car with all the doo hickeys, but enjoy my old car I fixed up more.

 

[MSW]

If you are considering spending a fair amount on a gun, I would suggest that you "invest" some time & cash to see the CLA show in Lexington, KY (Aug 15-16). Pictures are nice but to see & be able to handle a large selection in person is worth a lot. You would then be in a much better position to evaluate builders and prices.

this is a very good point ... while I wouldn't presume to insist on firing a rifle before I bought it, I'd rather hold it than see a photo. No offense meant to the builders, but most folks can't see in a photo spread what they can see in person.

 

[Dphar]

I am new to the world of muzzleloaders. I have always enjoyed shooting my Italian made "Hawken", but now that I am retired I decided to take more interest. I found several Muzzleloading forums about 1 1/2 years ago, and have spent endless hours reading posts ranging back many years. I would like to get a feel for what is what before I plunge to deeply into this. I have discovered that the rifles with the most appeal to me are those that carry great carving and engraving. Having searched out websites of as many makers as I can locate, I have found a few that create the work I would truly appreciate owning. Taylor Sapergia is the only Canadian maker I have been able to locate. I was lucky enough to purchase a rifle from Bill Shipman. It is an absolutely stunning piece with perfect inletting, carving and engraving. I feel lucky to own it. Jud Brennan makes some amazing rifles, though "aged" pieces do not usually appeal to me, I do like his work. Unfortunately it is virtually impossible to obtain one of his rifles, at least directly from him.
I would love to see some suggestions of who some other highly regarded makers are. I hope it is ok to ask this type of question here.

Wolfgang

I would recommend Taylor Sapergia.
Nor do I do this lightly.

Dan

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Brad Emig (sp?) at Cabin Creek Muzzleloading makes an excellent, plain rifle, called the Pennsylvania Mountain Rifle. Swamped barrel, .54 caliber, very simple..., and deer slayers (well mine is at any rate).

He makes very nice, fancy rifles too, as the photos of his work show very nice stuff, BUT I can only attest to what I've actually held and shot... , but I think you'd be pleased with whatever you bought from him.

LD

 

[Wolfe1]

Thank you for all the comments and suggestions, lots to think about.
I do realize that I need to attend some shows to fully appreciate the rifles. Bill Shipman sent photos when he completed my rifle, so I knew what it looked like. However, when I received it, I was completely blown away by the feel and balance. There is nothing like handling the real thing. However, shows have to wait until next year, simply not enough time this year. Of course, there is no rush make make any purchases, it is always good to take some time learn before jumping into things. And I certainly have a lot to learn.
I am planning on building a Jaeger rifle. But again, no rushing into it. I have the barrel, and will be making all the other parts. I think I will be able to build the lock this year. I will also be taking engraving courses and practice carving during the next year or two. Hopefully I will be confident enough to use it by the time I am ready to apply it to my work. Since I spend considerable time in Germany each year, I will have the opportunity to study originals.
However, I will always enjoy owning work by other makers, it's not just about having a rifle. To me, admiring the skill and artistry by those who have mastered both is the joy in owning these pieces.

Wolfgang

 

[BigBoreBLR]

Never built a lock. However, the easiest piece to make in my guess is the lock plate.

Work with a common commercial lockplate. You can build the gun with a commercial lock, then make the lock later.

I have stumbled around wood carving for years. Rebuilding or modifying old furniture. Carving is not bad at all. Much easier with hardwoods than pine. You can practice on pine with similar designs and then give it a go on more expensive and more time invested stocks.

Making some nice legs of a gun building bench would be a great start. Maybe a nicely carved shooting rest, range box, or something similar but related to the sport.