Bird and Ball?

[mr.fudd]

You hear often about the use of buck and ball loads for muskets and fowlers, but what about the use of bird and ball?

It just seems to me that a single barrel muzzleloading smoothbore, (while it may be versatile), really limits your choice of game and a subsistence hunter would not be in a position to turn down any game. By loading a small load of bird shot with a RB he would have a gun that could readily take down just about anything that got within 25 yards.

The only serious downside I can see with it would be the wasteful use of lead, which must have been at least as valuable to frontiersmen as it is to us.

 

[musketman]

By loading a small load of bird shot with a RB he would have a gun that could readily take down just about anything that got within 25 yards.

The only serious downside I can see with it would be the wasteful use of lead, which must have been at least as valuable to frontiersmen as it is to us.

I can see a few other "down sides" to this concept. First, it may be against the law to shoot larger game animals with this combo, there are restriction on the number of projectiles employed as well as the minimum size of the "buck" used. I not sure if there are such regulations regarding small game animals.

Next, if the animal isn't killed by the roundball but only hit with the shot, it could be left to die a slow painful death or even blinded if hit in the eyes by a few stray pellets.

Lastly, the shot could cause the roundball to stray off target by fusing itself to the ball while going down the barrel (if it doesn't act as an obstruction), the ball's mass will be off center with clumps of shot stuck to it and wouldn't fly true to it's design.

 

[nw_hunter]

Mr fudd is talking subsistence hunting here, and think this combo could be useful if lost in the woods, or hunting grouse in Griz. country.I wouldn't worry about breaking a game law if I was in a survival mode. The old 62 smoothbore with a ball in it would make me feel more secure, and If I had to shoot a Bar, I don't care if he gets sprinkled with a few extra shot :grin: .If I wing shoot a bird with the round ball instead of the shot, Half the cleaning job is done. :wink:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

A subsistence hunter would be most unwise to waste a ball on a bird or any small game. He needs to conserve all the powder and lead that he can. Better to decide what he is going after and load for it. The same shot load that will cleanly take a grouse will also take a rabbit or squirrel. A decent patched ball load for deer will give him a bear if he chances upon one. And Musketman has pretty much covered the other downsides to a ball and shot load.

 

[gjkershul]

It works.

 

[brubincam]

-----don't think it would be a good idea on an air shot---ball coming down who knows where-----

 

[Robert Egler]

I think there are two problems.

First, putting a ball with the shot is going to really decrease the volume of the shot a lot, and second, related to the first, is that the patterns will likely be manure. Both because the number of pellets will be greatly reduced, and because the ball will disrupt the shot pattern by itself.

But on the other hand, I've never tried it.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

You've hit upon the greatest limitation to the highly acclaimed versatility of the fowler. It CAN be loaded for any game you may encounter but you must know what you'll encounter before you load.
The fowler was the utility gun of its day, just like the H&R "Pardner" is today. But today's utility "pardner" has the advantage. If one comes across a deer while bird hunting, it takes but a moment to quickly and silently exchange the load of #6s for a rifled slug. Changing loads in a ML gun is a lot more difficult, noisy and involving a lot more motion. That's where a double really shines, you can have two different loads available for instant selection.
For the hardscrabble frontiersman firing a load of shot at a squirrel would likely have seemed wasteful. They probably loaded ball for deer and self defense and took the rabbits and squirrels with snares and traps, just like their Indian neighbors did. Even to me today, an ounce of lead with appropriate powder and wads seems like an expensive load for a mere squirrel, or a meercat for that matter. :haha:

 

[mr.fudd]

You're probably right about that. I can't imagine that with goods being shipped in large part by wagon train that something as heavy as lead wouldn't be rather valuable.

Still, if I were alone and hungry, and apparently people did get hungry out on the frontier, whatever moved would go in the pot. The more I think about it though, the more I think I'd load the smoothbore up with bird shot and then keep an undersized ball with me that I could drop down the barrel if I came across bigger game. That way you could be prepared for whatever game you came across, but you wouldn't be wasting precious lead.

 

[paulvallandigham]

People went west with the knowledge they had learned back east. They knew what plants were edible. They knew how to find edible root foods, like onions, or leeks, or the roots of cattails. They picked berries in season. They learned from the Indian tribes they traded with and befriended. They trapped and fished, and smoked fish and small game as well as venison to dry it and store it for the lean times. They could make a fish weir, and chase fish down stream into it, when they didn't have a hook and line, or a spear to take them.

All these skills are either forgotten, or mostly unknown, and rarely practiced because of current fish and game laws. More is the shame of it. We have allowed city people to make laws that make all of us less independent- less capable of surviving on our knowledge if the situation arises. Fortunately, there are " outdoor " schools where you can learn these skills, and teach yourself all this knowledge you missed out on learning when you were doing other things.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

That's a pretty good solution to the problem. Learn the skills Paul mentions and it's unlikely you'll ever go hungry.

 

[Homesteader]

For the life of me I can't recall where right now, but I remember reading a primary account of men tipping the OS card / wad and pouring out the shot in order to load ball when they encountered larger game. L&C or one of the early fur concerns, maybe?

That'd be relatively quick, quiet, and a lot easier than the other way around.

 

[tg]

I have tinkered with it a bit and when using overshot cards or hornets nest wadding it is pretty quick and quite to use the worm to dump the shot and run down a loose PRB or bare ball and wadding, these are the types of things that are best served buy going out in the woods in a brightly colored minniskirt and trying first hand,if a minniskirt is not handy, short leggins and a short shirt will suffice, colours are really a matter of persinal preference, at any rate finding what works for you will likley come from trial and error.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

What have you been smokin' dude?!! :haha:

 

[Cosmoline]

What about just dropping a roundball on top of the shot if you run into a bruin? I honestly don't know what that would do to its trajectory. I may do some experiments along these lines on the next trip out.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Inside 50 yards, putting a ball on top of the shot load will be accurate enough. But the recoil will also be huge, and that can affect the shooter, too. Mostly, hunters didn't just ' stumble " into a bear. They first saw its tracks, and then decided to follow it and kill it for all the fat it would give them, in addition to the meat. At that point they would pull their OS wad, dump out the shot( which they saved!) and replaced the shot with a PRB.

A quick ball down the barrel on top of a shot load may have been done on that rare occasion where a hunter got between cubs and a sow, and had to protect themselves from a mauling, IF THEY HAD TIME. The usual defense was to climb a tree, and use the rifle to keep the bear away until she decided to see to her cubs, and left.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Mostly, hunters .... ...replaced the shot with a PRB.

What time period would you be referring to the use of a patched round ball in a smooth bore as opposed to a bare ball with wadding over top? I cant seem to find an 18th century reference at all. Are we talking about 19th and 20th cnetury meat hunters?

 

[asabai]

As stated such a load would probably be inaccurate and shot patterns would be poor. Not to mention the possibility of shredding a grouse with a .54 or larger PRB. frontiersmen and native were adept hunters targeting and loading for specific game. Light for grouse heavy for ducks and geese and the PRB for big game. I think most would not rely on the PRB for defence against bears. They would be much better avoiding them.

In a emergence situation shot is better than ball. Nearly anywhere with shot, you'd be eating within an hour. Think beyond game laws and game animals in that situation.

 

[ronrryan]

"Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes..." Good smoke, Ron

 

[paulvallandigham]

Rifling of barrels dates back to the 16th century and Wheellocks, in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and the Scandanavian countries, where large game, at longer range were hunted.
http://www.answers.com/topic/rifle
http://books.google.com/books?id=D...X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA152,M1

Using a cloth patch and an undersized ball is generally accepted as having begun at least in this period, largely because the technology did not exist to manufacture balls, or ball molds that were dimensionally exactly the diameter of these early barrels. You see deep grooves in the few remaining museum pieces, indicating that they gunmaker intended the grooves to catch residue and would expect a thick cloth patch to be used around a lead ball to seal the gases from cutting or melting the ball, and get the needed velocity. Conversely, Shallow Grooves would have indicated that a closer- to- bore- size projectile, like a conical, was fired from these guns instead of a PRB.

By the 18th century, when some smoothrifles were in use by civilian hunters, and many shooters of muskets were aware that using some kind of patching to seal the gases behind the round ball in smooth barrel would give more accuracy, cloth would have been in use among other things. There are a few references to cartridges being sewn out of cloth,( particular in cannons)before paper cartridges came into more common useage.

I have never seen a specific written reference that dates the introduction of the use of cloth patches around lead balls, either in rifles or smoothbores. I suspect its just a minor matter that no one at the time thought significant enough to write about.

These skills were not ones that the upperclass of society, who could afford to attend private schools( there were no public schools until the early 19th century), were likely to either learn or write about. They could afford to have servants load their guns for any hunt. That often is the only explanation scholars can give us as to why nothing can be found in early literature about various subjects. At least they are honest.

I found the same problem when trying to learn who invented the shoe string, and how to tie the knot, and how to use a straight razor to shave. I did find a booklet showing howto properly pack, and why, a pipe with tobacco, at a tobacco shop, but it gave no information on how far back this knowledge goes, or who " figured it out".

There are many imponderables, Captain, and I was not put on this Earth to answer all of these things for you. I have never made any claim to knowing all the answers. How about doing your own research? :hmm: