Bismuth/Tin Alloy for Roundballs

[nkbj]

the problem with all these substitute projectiles is the same as the problem with non-lead shot for waterfowl. The specific gravity isn't dense enough to carry the balls energy like lead. A tin/bismuth ball will drop even more of it's energy than lead at 100 yds. Punch all the holes in paper that you want, but the issue is game and penetration. I am primarily a target shooter and frankly could care less how slow a ball punches through a piece of paper as long as the group is small. But for hunting, some of these substitutes may as well be made of styrofoam because they won't be worth crap at 100 yds for hunting unless the material has a specific gravity close to lead. There is such a material, but the cost would be prohibitive. Gold.

The lighter weight on iron balls would make big smooth bores attractive. Something like a Bess with a rear sight could be a winner.

 

[jamesthomas]

I'll stick with my lead RB's thank you, even if I did live in the Commie State of California.

 

[THBailey]

The waterfowlers now have some shot that is actually heavier than lead. ITX extreme is 13.0 g/cc and Hevi-Shot is 12.0 g/cc as compared to lead at 11.34 g/cc. But these substitutes are way to hard for a traditional cloth patching and obturation, but they would have the potential for exterior ballistics slightly superior to lead. Terminal ballistics would remain to be seen.

Possibly a smaller sub caliber ball patched with something durable and thick. The patch would need to center the projectile in the bore, absolutely keep it from touching the bore, and provide the necessary sealing upon firing. Possibly a leather patch. Might also need some overpowder wadding.

I note the biggest Hevi-Shot currently available is 00B at about .330 diameter. ITX does make some "balls" (they are not really round) in their ITX original which is 10 g/cc (lighter than lead), but the heavier extreme is apparently only available in shot sizes at this time.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Let’s change our perspective and consider for a moment that California could have made the Condor zone a No Hunting Zone. States have Federal preserves, State and National Parks, and recreation areas as well as other areas that are no hunting. And this doesn’t even begin to come close to private land that is no hunting or leased only to the privileged.
Californians should be grateful that hunting was left on the table, albeit without the use of lead. We all agree that muzzleloaders should have been considered differently.
When we open our eyes and look at it from a different perspective we can see how insignificant it really is. ”¦Seriously! Take a moment and look around and notice all the areas that you cannot hunt. It makes using lead a little insignificant by comparison.

 

[GreyWhiskers]

Trying to keep this thread on topic, about the bismuth/tin alloy and how it will work for ML hunting. I may start a separate topic in the ML Hunting Regulations forum.

Yesterday I shot a bismuth/tin roundball into ballistic gel and then shot a pure lead ball next to it. Distance was only about 15 yards. The lead ball flattened some and stopped at about 21". The B/T ball passed completely thru the 32" gel and I'm guessing didn't deform much.

The pic shows the lead ball on the right and the B/T ball's travel on left.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Interesting, what caliber and powder charge? A chronoghraph would have been nice too :thumbsup:

 

[GreyWhiskers]

Yeah, I thought about the chrony too late. But I know that the pure lead ball leaves the barrel at about 1650fps. The bismuth ball is a bit lighter so maybe a bit faster. 50 caliber. GW

 

[Cpl. Ashencheeks]

Wouldn't a complete unexpanded pass through on game be somewhat undesirable?

A good expansion of a projectile upon terminal impact leads to a wider wound channel especially at an exit wound.

I would think just drilling a straight hole through the game might lead to longer recovery of a mortally wounded animal.

 

[azmntman]

I agree, need some expansion, however a pass through leaves a better blood trail (when expanded anyway).

 

[Cpl. Ashencheeks]

I am also curious about how well this metal casts into different types metal molds.

I have aluminum, brass, and steel molds.

This would be from those $20.00 ingots correct?

I have been thinking about buying some of this material myself.

I like the idea of being able to cast small amounts of projectiles at one time.

 

[coloradoclyde]

In some states hunting with a non-expanding projectile is illegal :youcrazy:

 

[Cpl. Ashencheeks]

In some states hunting with a non-expanding projectile is illegal :youcrazy:

Hmmm....

Well they are still arguing about different lead free composite projectiles as being potentially AP, but I don't think muzzleloaders qualify in that regard.

Maybe the ITX doesn't pass muster for being a minimally expanding projectile, yet it is on the DFW website that it says that it is legally California compliant for hunting use in the dreaded bird zone.

From Grey Whisker's findings, this bismuth/tin alloy has better expansion properties at least in comparison to being more malleable than what the ITX round balls would have.

 

[GreyWhiskers]

In CA, muzzleloading projectiles only need to be of at least .40 caliber. There is no expanding requirement.

As I see it, MLs are similar to handguns for hunting. Large diameter bullets at relatively low velocities. Elmer Keith was a fan of large diameter, hard cast bullets for big game. Lead/antimony/tin bullets don't expand in game either. Keith type bullets do have a sharp forward shoulder though, where r/balls don't.

A 50 cal hole in the vitals and all the way through a big game animal is what muzzleloading hunters are hoping for. GW

 

[Scota4570]

Glad somebody tried the rotometals alloy. Nice to see it is useable. Thing is is it not allowed for use. To be allowed it must be on this list.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/certifiedammo.html

I see the condor people are releasing bird in the north state. I am certain that the no lead rules will spread to those areas too. Keep in mind that it is the Department of Fish and Wildlife, not "fish and game" any more. They no longer consiter hunting and fishing to be a priority. Places to go are all but gone at this point. The DFW is an anti hunting organization. It is headed by a far left enviornmentalist. The previous chief was a good man with good values. He was railroaded with bogus charges and replaced.

If you want to use a ML you must use Barnes all copper bullets. maybe other choices will be offered in the future.

 

[Scota4570]

Can't edit my previous post :idunno:

Also the federal list for shot:

http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/CurrentBirdIssues/nontoxic.htm

I would definately get something in writing from somebody that matters at DFW before fielding homebrew no tox bullets.

 

[azmntman]

If at all possible I'd just get the heck outta there. Ocean front property in AZ may be just a classic ol country song now but..... :idunno:

 

[Zonie]

Looks to me like "the list" doesn't address any muzzleloaders issues.

I also noticed the sheet in the link had this to say for anyone thinking of using "Non-toxic shot".

"
Non-toxic shot approved by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service for use in waterfowl hunting (Section 507.1, Title 14, California Code of Regulations) is certified to take appropriate nongame species within the nonlead zone."

Notice the verbage "nongame species".

Without reading the tons of California regulations I'm guessing here but that looks like using it for hunting squirrel, rabbits and turkeys with a smoothbore would be illegal even if Federal approved shot was being used.

( I classify all of these critters as a game animals.)

 

[coloradoclyde]

I guess if I hunted in California I would get on the phone and start making calls......every day
Eventually you will get answers and they will publish them....get my drift? if you make the problem known...enough..they will have to address it. :2

 

[Scota4570]

The pattern in addressing "problems" is to stop hunting and fishing oppertunities. I was told by a warden to consiter it illegal to hunt or fish unless there is a rule or law that specifically allows it.

I do plan on leaving ASAP. California has become a socialist nightmare.

 

[GreyWhiskers]

Glad somebody tried the rotometals alloy. Nice to see it is useable. Thing is is it not allowed for use. To be allowed it must be on this list.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/certifiedammo.html

I wondered if the list was just to help ID certain ammo in the field or if it meant that projectiles/ammo had to be on it to be legal in the non-lead zone. So I called a Lt buddy at DFW. His opinion was this-

The law is flawed and DFW realizes it. 'Technically' bullets have to be on that approved list. But CA hasn't updated that list for quite a while and isn't even capable of doing the testing. The Feds have provided most of the info on shotshells for waterfowling.

Hunters who reload make things difficult for wardens to determine if their bullets are on that list. Same for cast bullets/balls.

Wardens do have the means to test in the field. (I watched a demo with the device last Saturday. It checks shotshells without taking them apart. My bismuth balls tested as bismuth.) Wardens will only be concerned with lead or non-lead. Not about the list.

So, while I don't like it, that's the way it is at this point in time. As we get closer to 2018, when the entire state goes non-lead, things may change.

GW