Black Powder Substitute in flintlocks

[Sharps1863]

Dont work, I have tried both Triple 7 and Pyrodex, It takes more heat to sit these off and that flint does not do it. I think they would work in a match lock. :grin: but not in a flintlock.
But the bad thing is Finding black-powder without ordering it. I don't know about Canada but the stores around here don't keep it. I have checked the Goex listing dealers for my state. The ones I have called don't stock it anymore say its too much of a hassle. The Fed's list it different than the black powder subs. Regular black powder has to be kept locked up and not on the shelves. So most dealers don't bother anymore with it.
At least that was their excuse for not keeping it.
I have 1 Flintlock, Verses 5 percussion guns at least they will shot Triple-7 or Pyrodex. But I enjoy shooting the Flintlock more than Percussion guns. :thumbsup:

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

The Fed's list it different than the black powder subs. Regular black powder has to be kept locked up and not on the shelves. So most dealers don't bother anymore with it.
At least that was their excuse for not keeping it.

There's more to it than just that here ... they need a Fire Marshall's/BATFE-approved locker/magazine for explosives, i.e., black powder, proper State & local/county permits,plus the additional Fed paperwork, to start with.

 

[Zonie]

Not to mention higher insurance.

Although the black powder is stored quite safely if all of the Fed and local regulations are met the insurance companies usually increase the stores rates because, "They have an Explosive stored there!!!!!"

 

[buzz]

have good luck with goex and pyrodex 3f as the prime and load in either 3f or 2f

 

[talkingamoeba]

I have no experience either way, but the man at the place I ordered my kit from told me he uses 4F in the pan and straight Pyrodex for the charge. I hope he's right, I already bought the Pyrodex and Goex 4F.

 

[paulvallandigham]

He was wrong about the pyrodex. The Can has a warning on it that says its not intended to be used in Flintlocks! Also, Hodgdon, that makes Pyrodex, tells you in its data manual that Pyrodex can only be fired in flintlocks if a starter charge of 4Fg powder is placed down the barrel FIRST, followed by the load of pyrodex. The pyrodex load should be reduced in volume by the volume of Black Powder you put down the barrel as the "starter charge".

I do not agree with using 4Fg powder in the barrel. Use 3Fg for your starter charge, instead.
If you have a rifle with a powder chamber, you will probably be better served by using more than 5 grains by volume of starter powder, so that the flash channel, the powder chamber, and perhaps a small portion of the bore has Black Powder in it. Otherwise, getting the pyrodex to ignite quickly and consistently will remain a problem.

USE BLACK POWDER ONLY IN FLINTLOCKS. You are kidding yourself if you think anything else works as well. :shocked2: :nono: :surrender: :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[TFoley]

Paul - this subject crops up so often these days that it seems to me that it were best made into a sticky.

And for the OP, here in UK, where there are VERY few flintlock fun-gunners, we had a show-and-tell black powder range day a while back.

Apart from a selection of percussion guns of all kinds, rifle, musket, pistol and revolver, we used two flintlock pistols and two flintlock rifles.

Using Pyrodex and Triple 7 we failed to obtain one single ignition in any of the flintlocks, and 100% success in all of the percussion guns, using RWS hot caps and musket caps where appropriate.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

 

[gearheart]

To paraphrase Will Rogers, Some folks learn by watching, others by listening, and there are others who have to pee on the electric fence and figure it out for themselves. This subject has be cussed and discussed ad nauseam. If you have to prove that it won't work be prepared for trouble.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Tac: That is pretty much the common experience of everyone I know who has tried the Substitute powders in flintlocks. Some have played around with starter charges, but they almost all report inconsistent ignition, and hang-fires. Neither are good for accuracy.

Some people insist on their God-Given Right to pee on that electric fence wire themselves to find out what happens..... :shocked2: :shake: :haha: :surrender: :hmm:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Thanks for your help. I don't think there is any one in 200 miles from where I live that sells real black powder. I will have to go on a road trip to find some I reckon. I don't know if they will ship that stuff in Canada or not.

Dunno about in 'Bridge or the Hat, but in Calgary, Wholesale and ProLine usually have the real stuff, and Ba$$ Pro likely would. I think there are some others, as well, in this end of the province - maybe Battle River Sports in Stettler, or Bashaw Sports, but they're probably too far from you.

You can also check with Hillfolk Musket Supplies, Senlac, SK. Doug and Beckey. 306-228-2949. They are very good people, make it to most of the gun shows, and may well do mail-order.

Regards,
Joel

 

[user 17669]

Yesterday, I stopped by my gun shop and picked up a pound of 2F Goex. When I asked for it, he said he would have to go get it -- outside in his "safe." He then told me about all of the regulations that have been imposed in the name of "homeland security." It is quite odious to thing of the red tape involved in selling BP. The only reason he bothers, I think, is that he is a dedicated (flint lock) ML shooter. No wonder it gets harder to find. In addition, I was accustomed to paying $16-$18 per pound and it was now $25. :hmm: After all someone has to pay for all of that "protection." Our federal government "keeping us safe from terrorists." (Don't get me wrong, I think that is one of government's legitimate functions.) The Pyro costs less than $20 at Wally World. Did not even check his price on Pyro because I wanted BP.
I remember, not too long ago, he kept the BP on the shelf next to the Pyro. Then it was exiled to the back room. Now a locked (approved lock) safe outside his shop. The substitutes are still kept inside with the smokeless. (For how long?)
BTW, he still has some Goex Clear Shot (about $30) which is discontinued but still available which he sells to flinter shooters if he has no real BP.

 

[horseman1977]

After phoning around I found some from the local Black Powder Club. The order in bulk every once in a while and everybody stocks up then. They have BP in Edmonton, Caroline, Calgary, etc but it is around the $30/lb. So it looks like I will have to think ahead and make sure to stock up before I want to shoot the flintlock. Thanks for all the help. I am sure I will have more questions once I start shooting my flintlock.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you have a local BP club, you are truly blessed. You have a place to shoot- practice--- and people who can answer your questions, and show you what to do correctly, from their own experiences. You can use us as " back-up" if you think something you are told to do is not correct.

Having a group that places bulk orders for powder will save you lots of money. And, if you ask nicely, someone is likely to share a pound or two of their "stash" with you, until that next order can be placed. :shocked2: :hmm: :bow: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Jblk]

I tried about seven grains of 3F BP under Pistol pyrodex numerous times in my GP rifle and it functions without a flaw.I have used this load in cold weather without any failures.BP is by far my choice, but if your supply of BP is limited it will work.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

I tried to use some 777 in my old traditions longrifle and got it to work "some of the time". I never got Pyrodex to work even a little bit.

As others have mentioned, the subs have an ignition point in the neighborhood of 300° to 400° higher than real black powder. As long as I do my part, black powder ALWAYS works. Save yourself the headaches and use the real stuff. None of the substitutes are worth the container they're sold in if you're trying to use them in a flintlock.

twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[buzz]

I was out at a shoot had my cannon and my flinter
had been shooting pyrodex and normaly dont have any trouble
this time i had a handful of hang fires
put goex in the pan the next day never a hangfire
also shooting the cannon it made more noisae and did fowl the touch hole as much same load
so i will retracted i changing to BP in my flints and cannon but i use pyro in my cappers till it gone

 

[KentSmith]

Blackpowder only in flintlocks. I use only 2F but all my guns are 50 cal or above. Hae used 4F and 3F to primeand though I am sure there is a slight difference in the speed of pan ignition if your timing it with the proper equipment, I cant tell the difference. Saves me time making and carrying a priming horn or container and fooling around with it while hunting. I hunt bear with my flinter and really like the idea of being able to load quickly for a second shot if needed.

Subs believe it or not are far more corrosive than bp. The problems comes with the ability to clean the bp residue much more completely than you can with the subs. I can not recall the data I picked up on the subject and will see if I can get to the notes sometime if anyone wants to check further on this subject.

I buy from Graf. They will sell a minimum of 4 lbs and ship (not sure about Canada though). Ends up costing about $15 per lb with shipping to VA.

 

[nkbj]

Some substitute bp's behave differently when compressed, driving pressures up irratically and sometimes dangerously. If you stick a starter charge of black under a sub to get it to go off in a flinter are you hitting it with a compressing pressure wave? I don't know. But, it bugs me enough to prevent backyard experimentation.
I cannot blindly accept it would be any better an idea than mixing charges of any other non-bp product unless someone shows some valid research with pressure sensors and strain gages.

 

[ebiggs1]

I have tried, in the backyard, about every way imaginable to get subs to work. Ways I won’t go into here because the problem, as I see it, is not getting the subs to fire, it is hitting your target when you do. No matter how you get them to ignite, they are slow. So slow to almost make it impossible to hit anything, which makes getting them to fire secondary.
Of coarse I never strayed into anything close to heavy loads but I haven’t seen any pressure issues. The patches still look normal. (Compared to my cap lock patches shot with straight Pyrodex, etc.)