Blow-by and melted lead.

[rogervan]

Hello again,

I'm a bit concerned about the thickness of the ticking for my particular rifle. It occurs to me that the powder ignition may burn through the patch. If that were to happen, would it spread a thin layer of lead inside the barrel? What method or tool scrapes lead off of the inside of a bbl? Do I need to be equipped with the tool that removes the lead? I need to know this because I haven't shot this gun yet, and I don't want to screw it up.

Thank you for your consideration,

Clffdvr

 

[BrownBear]

I've never seen burned patches result in leaded bores or blow by, but lots on the board have way more experience than me. The only time I've leaded a bore is with conicals when I didn't have enough lube or when the lube was wrong, especially if I was pushing for high vel.

As for getting rid of lead, it's pretty straight forward. I've experienced lots with cartridge guns because I'm always messing with lead bullets. There are several good lead solvents on the market, and they work when used as directed.

I'd be inclined to buy packs of prelubed patches of different thicknesses (probably .010, .015, .018, and .020 if you could find it). Shoot each with a range of loads, noting both ease of bullet seating and condition of recovered patches.

Nothing scientific, but my guns seem to shoot best with combos that require at least a light tap with a short starter to start the ball. I know some target shooters use loads so tight that a mallet is needed to start a bullet, but I'm a more casual shooter and hunter.

I also know of folks who load their first shot for hunts with a tight combo for accuracy, but carry a looser fitting combo in their loading block for followup shots so they can seat more quickly. I've tinkered a little with that and may do so myself. There's not enough difference in accuracy in my guns to make a difference at hunting ranges, while a little extra speed might be really valuable sometime.

 

[roundball]

Hello again,

I'm a bit concerned about the thickness of the ticking for my particular rifle. It occurs to me that the powder ignition may burn through the patch. If that were to happen, would it spread a thin layer of lead inside the barrel? What method or tool scrapes lead off of the inside of a bbl? Do I need to be equipped with the tool that removes the lead? I need to know this because I haven't shot this gun yet, and I don't want to screw it up.

Thank you for your consideration,

Clffdvr

Cliff, if you'll use a fairly snug fitting patch ball combo, that will minimize blowby & patch burning;

Also, enure whatever patch you do use is heavily lubed...the lube is basically what protects the patch from burning;

Lastly, if you're using a stout charge of 3F, you may have to use a lubed wad over the powder so it acts like a firewall to further protect the patch.

In any case, I've never experienced any leading from an occasional patch burn through doing load development and as a result have never needed or used any such tool on a muzzleloader for the example you describe

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you lube the barrel after seating the ball, or simply use a lubed patch on the jag to run the PRB down onto the powder, lubing the barrel in the same stroke, you will not have leading or fouling problems. The extra lube also helps keep the patch lubed and unburned. Use a thick enough patch.

If you choose to use FFFg powders in large amounts, or, God Help You, the substitute powders on the market, you will probably need an OP wad, or filler, or lubed patch folded and driven down on to the powder to act as a firewall, to protect that lubed patch from burning. The Subs burn at substantially higher temperatures than does BP.

 

[rogervan]

"...
About God protecting me, what gives? Are identical grains of FFG Pyrodex hotter or different than FFG Black Powder? Your post seemed to point to a concept that I'm not aware of, and I confess I want to know it all, or at least enough to get me shooting consistently out at 100 yards...."
-----------------
I believe Paul was refering to the differences between real black powder and the all of the substitutes.

Pyrodex RS is similar to FFg black powder but it burns a little hotter. It is designed so that a volume of it has about the same amount of power as blackpowder. That way if you normaly load 75 grains (volume) of blackpowder then 75 grains (volume) of Pyrodex will closely approximate the results of the black powder.
You don't need to worry about God or anything else helping you if you use Pyrodex.

If you use 777 powder, it definitely is more powerful and seems to burn much hotter than regular black powder.
This powder has a reputation for burning thru patches which is why the use of a wad between the 777 and the patched ball is recommended.

The other substitute powders seem to fall between Pyrodex and 777 as far as power and the heat generated when they ignite.

Any of them are safe to use in a traditional muzzleloader provided you don't exceed the gun makers recommended maximum load.

As for flat trajectories, roundballs start off fast but quickly loose velocity. There trajectories therefore start off fairly flat but start to drop after about 75 yards.
It's the nature of the beast, and it is one of the many things that make shooting muzzleloaders interesting.
zonie

PS. OK, I screwed up and overwrote this post. :redface: My appologies. zonie :redface:

 

[tg]

Many folks use 3f up to and incuding .62 cal sopme even bigger bores with no ill effect the performance will usually tell you what your gun likes best,

 

[roundball]

Ah, good! I made a correct evaluation - I decided early on that this rifle is more like a cannon and needs FFG real black powder. In fact, I would be afraid to use FFFG. I get the impression that doing that could harm the rifle and screw-up the accuracy. IMO so far, I think it's correct that if I want to try hotter loads, I should just increase the FFG powder.

Actually, that's not quite correct...blackpowder is[url] blackpowder...in[/url] fact, 2F and 3F are simply granulation size differences made from the same run of blackpowder material as it's being manufactured...absolutely no reason to be afraid of it, and you'll learn that most or many people prefer 3F instead of 2F because it burns faster and cleaner...for example, I use 3F for my round ball loads in .40/.45/.50/.54cals and also use 3F in my .62cal smoothbores.

The higher the granulation number, the smaller the size granulation...ie: 3F is smaller than 2F, 4F is smaller than 3F, etc.

A 100 grain powder measure setting will contain a larger physical number of 3F granules than it will a number of 2F granules because the 3F size granules are smaller so more of them fit in, less empty air space between granules, etc.

As a result, there are more physical surfaces exposed in a 3F charge that can be burning at the same time so the 3F charge burns faster, generates more pressure faster, etc.
(a rough analogy is a glass of water with one large ice cube in it vs. a glass with a dozen smaller cubes in it...the quantity of smaller cubes have a greater total surface area and will cool the water faster, etc)

So when substituting 3F for 2F, simply reduce the amount of 3F powder to keep pressures in the same ballpark...ie: in place of a 100grn charge of 2f, simply use 85grns of 3F.

Welcome to a great hobby

 

[MikeWoodyard]

Even if the patch burns through, a lead ball wouldn't lead the barrel any worse than a conical bullet would (which isn't much if at all). You are talking about very low pressures and very low velocities here. Leading is just not going to be an issue. Shoot the gun, and if you have some lead in the barrel, get out some CLP, or Hoppe's #9, or whatever solvent you have on the shelf and a bronze brush and go to town.

 

[Rat Trapper]

You will not have any problems using any of the subs in a cap lock. CCI # 11 mag caps help. The subs will shoot better if you have a reloaders scale. first you have to pour some powder into you powder measure at the volume setting you want and then drop it on your scale. Get an average this way and then run your powder on the scale. If you are still in doubt regarding using any of the black powder subs, contact the company who made your rifle and ask them how much you can use. Felt wads under the bullet also help. I have not tried any loads with 3f Triple seven, but I am aware that some writers have started doing this. Loads need to be reduced and again I recommend you contact the company that made your rifle for advise in this area.

 

[Zonie]

A word on actually weighing any of the substitute powders to determine how much to load.
Don't.

For any given amount of power ,Pyrodex for instance weighs 1/3 less than the same volume as real black powder.
If you want the equivalent of a 80 grain blackpowder load it would weigh 80 grains if you measured real black powder. If you were weighing the 80 grain equivalent of black powder but using Pyrodex, it would weigh 30 percent less, or 53.4 grains on a scale.
If you actually weighed out 80 grains of Pyrodex on a scale, it would have the energy of (or be equal to) 106.7 grains of black powder.

Many of the other black powder substitutes do not actually weigh the same amount that real black powder does. Most weigh less.

When measuring any of the substitute powders use the volume measure you normally use for measuring real black powder. If you want an 80 grain (equivalent) powder load, set your measure to the 80 grain setting.

zonie

 

[redwing]

This is very bad advise. The very soft dead lead in a barrel is a real problem. The soft lead will coat the barrel at very low speeds. This will cause patches to be cut and torn, PRBs hard to load Etc. And it can be very hard to remove. Just pushing some CLP thru the bore as you would with your old M-16 just won't get it done. Use the right powder and patches every thing will work better. :thumbsup:

 

[MikeWoodyard]

This is very bad advise. The very soft dead lead in a barrel is a real problem. The soft lead will coat the barrel at very low speeds. This will cause patches to be cut and torn, PRBs hard to load Etc. And it can be very hard to remove. Just pushing some CLP thru the bore as you would with your old M-16 just won't get it done. Use the right powder and patches every thing will work better. :thumbsup:

I have never, ever, seen leading become an issue when shooting patched round balls. Nor has it been an issue when shooting properly lubed conicals. Nor has it been an issue shooting cast bullets out of my .45/70 (at over 1,800 fps). The guy was worried about his patches burning through and the powder gasses melting the lead ball and coating his barrel with molten lead...'aint gonna happen. Quit trying to scare the guy with BS horror stories and let him go enjoy his rifle.

Clffdvr: just get some good prelubed patches, or some good dry pillow ticking patches and lube 'em with Bore Butter, Crisco, Wonderlube, or whatever and you'll be just fine. Follow the advice that has been given regarding powder charges (especially measuring black powder substitutes by volume)and your rifle will shoot just fine. You can play around with different patch thicknesses and see which gives you the best accuracy, but don't be concerned about them burning through unless you get nuts on the powder charge (and even then you are more likely to blow 'em apart then burn 'em). And even if you do get lead in your barrel (I doubt it), don't worry about it. A bronze brush, a good solvent, and a little elbow grease will remove it.

 

[Zonie]

Thoughts on brass or bronze bore brushes:

Generally speaking, these things are made for modern guns with thru bores.
The thru bores allow the bristles on the brush to straighten out as the brush emerges from the far end of the barrel.
If used in a muzzleloader, there is no exit at the far end so the bristles cannot straighten up. They remain bent towards the muzzle resulting in what might be called a reverse Chinese Finger Trap. You remember those things don't you?
Anyway, more than one of us has stuck a bore brush down a muzzleloader and found that it won't pull back out no matter how hard it's pulled.

The solution to the problem is rotation.
If your brush "gets stuck", twist the ram rod or cleaning rod in a clockwise direction. This will bend the bristles to the side.
While your twisting after the rod/brush starts to turn, pull gently on the rod and viola! the rod and brush will then pull back out of the bore. :grin:

Another way to keep this getting stuck thing from happening is to use the kind of brass/bronze "brushes" that don't really have bristles. They have a spiral twisted wire look.

OH, and do not use cheap brushes. More than one person here has had the screw area of the brush pull off leaving the wad of wire and bristles stuck down at the bottom of the bore. Talk about a real Pain in the Ass to get out!!!

zonie

 

[rogervan]

Oh that's interesing. After I shoot enough FFG to get to know the feel of this rifle, I'll try some FFFG to see how it compares.

May I assume that the projectile velocity will be faster using FFFG?

If FFFG is safe to use in a 62 caliber rifle, is that because modern metal barrels are inherintly stronger than the genuine period piece?

(I hold my posts to two questions so I don't burn you guys out.)

Clffdvr

 

[paulvallandigham]

How about you investing some money in a copy of the Lyman Black Powder manual, second edition to or spend about $80.00 to buy your own chronograph? There are so many variables in shooting any muzzle loading rifle, or smoothbore, that even published data only gets you close to whatever velocity you may be getting.

I am not being snide, or flip with you. The truthful answers to most of your questions is either " I don't know," or " Maybe?" Case in point.

I got a new fowler a couple of years back. It was a 20 gauge. The maker bought the barrels from the same supplier that he used to make his own gun. We bought 20 gauge wads, and took them out to his private range to test fire the guns before leaving with them. Both guns shot low on the target- much lower than his gun shot a round ball with the same load. Even he was puzzled. But, it was late in the afternoon, snow on the ground, it was bone cold, and with the failing light, it really was not the best of times to be doing any testing. We left.

The next day, we took the guns to a friend's range, closer to home, and shot the guns again. They were hitting very low on the paper, and the loads didn't sound right. My friend brought out his caliper, and we found that both our barrels were way oversized- .627 vs .620. The wads were not wide enough to seal the barrel. We had brought the Chronograph out, so we clock one of the laods, and sure enough, the velocity was only about 800 fps, instead of an expected 1050fps! I ordered some 19 gauge wads, and those did the trick. The next time on the range, our loads were shooting in the 1035 fps. range. And the balls hit at the base of the bullseye at 25 yards. We had expected to have to either raise the powder charge, or file down the front site to zero the gun with round balls, as this is normal with any new gun. But, there was no way we could adjust that front sight enough to bring the balls up some 8 or more inches!

We had consulted tables to determine what to expect with a 75 grain charge of FFg powder behind a .600, 325 grain round ball, and patch. I have yet to try FFFg powder in this barrel, but will be doing so. That is part of the experience of shooting these guns.

Don't try to replace all that experience by getting " standard answers " from the rest of us. We can only guide you so much. The rest YOU do on the range.

 

[roundball]

Oh that's interesing. After I shoot enough FFG to get to know the feel of this rifle, I'll try some FFFG to see how it compares.

May I assume that the projectile velocity will be faster using FFFG?

If FFFG is safe to use in a 62 caliber rifle, is that because modern metal barrels are inherintly stronger than the genuine period piece?

(I hold my posts to two questions so I don't burn you guys out.)

Clffdvr

I use 3F for round ball loads in .40/.45/.50/.54 calibers and all .62cal smoothbore loads...I reduce the 2F load data amount by 15% when doing so, works perfectly

 

[redwing]

No I agree with you on the point that the lead will not melt. But if you have done much shooting with a PRB then you would know a burned out patch will cause leading.
The ball traveling against the bore wall will leave lead streaks these can and will build up. They can result in cut patches and other problems. The use of the bronze brush for a novice is not a good idea. That is unless you tell him how to remove the stuck brush. The bronze brush is made to pull through a bore not reverse and pull back. I hope you have learned a few things about PRBs by joining in on this post. Thanks. :thumbsup:

 

[MikeWoodyard]

Dude, I've been casting and shooting lead bullets in all manner of firearms since I was 12 years old. Funny how those cast bullets made it down the barrel without a patch and didn't lead the bore. Also funny how conicals make it down the barrel of muzzleloaders with no patch and they don't lead the bore either. The patch is just there to seal the ball to the bore. It is not there to prevent leading.

 

[roundball]

"...if you have done much shooting with a PRB then you would know a burned out patch will cause leading..."

"...The bronze brush is made to pull through a bore not reverse and pull back..."

Just in case you've had a bad run of luck...I wanted to clarify that I had a .45cal x 1:66" round ball barrel that shredded patches with hot 90grn charges of Goex 3F...never got any leading.

Shot 100-150 TC .45cal/255grn Maxi-Hunters through a .45cal x 1:48" standard barrel with 100grns of Goex 2F, never got any leading.

I've probably bought 5-6 dozen muzzleloader brushes in different calibers over the past 15+ years...specifying muzzleloader brushes when I ordern them from a ML supply house...some were blisterpacked under the name CVA, some under other labels...every one of them was bronze and none of them were reversible.

When the bristles are new and sharp out of the pack they occasionally hang up on their first use or two...just have to rotate the ramrod to curve the bristles so they lose their grip on the bore and slide it back up...after a few trips downbore the razor cut tips dull and they no longer hang...IMO bronze brushes are the best.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

that felt button atop powder charge prevents patch burning quite a lot. a dob of lube atop will help keep fouling down/soft also.