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Blow up of ML?
- Thread starter PreglerD
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It is it the ball isn't seated on the powder or you have a barrel obstruction. Other than that, it would be awfully hard to do.
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aw gees...here we go..... first we're blowin down the muzzle...now we gonna blow up the muzzle...gees wisht ya make up our minds.. member i gets confused easy,,,specially with rebel talkin.... :blah: RC
Heck RC, you get confused easy when you are the ONLY one talking. :grin:
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ITS THE VOICES :shocked2: REBEL...IT'S THE VOICES.... RC :shake:
Some folks there say that it is possible to blow a ML with fine BP like FFFFg. But in GE every gun is tested by the authorities and for example a cal. 54 rifle has to stand three shots with 215.6 grs FFFg and a 431 grs conical bullet. Only then it gets the permission to be traded and used.
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....WOW! :shocked2: now theres a job i'd stay away from... gees! RC
Glad you posted that, thank you.
I consider myself to be VERY safety concious and well disciplined with firearms...but on the subject of max loads in a muzzleloader, over the years I have come to the belief that there is way too much fear and paranoia about blackpowder in muzzleloaders.
IMO there are a lot of hand-me-down sayings that survive from one generation to the next, but I think some of them have their roots way back at a time when people were far less knowledgeable and aware of technology than we are today...and in most cases they don't have much or any merit.
Yet they continue to be repeated over and over ad naseum as if they are scientifcally established facts based upon sophisticated testing capability...but...that sophisticated testing capability did not exist back then.
One example just recently was all the knashing of teeth over the case of some controlled experiments with some small charges of 4F as main powder charges...some people were repeating the same old anecdotal phrases like "I'll never put 4F in my barrel" or "4F will blow up your gun" or "make sure I'm not around when you experiment with it"...etc, etc, etc...all clever sayings to imply that the poster "actually knows something scientific" when in fact none of them "knew" anything scientific at all.
Liability is also a big influence on the paranoia...even in our relatively modern times your proof charge example is well more than twice the max load published by T/C in their BP handbook...so while I will always remain cautious I rarely take old sayings at face value anymore, knowing there are huge safety margins already built in to existing load data.
Thanks for sharing...
I consider myself to be VERY safety concious and well disciplined with firearms...but on the subject of max loads in a muzzleloader, over the years I have come to the belief that there is way too much fear and paranoia about blackpowder in muzzleloaders.
IMO there are a lot of hand-me-down sayings that survive from one generation to the next, but I think some of them have their roots way back at a time when people were far less knowledgeable and aware of technology than we are today...and in most cases they don't have much or any merit.
Yet they continue to be repeated over and over ad naseum as if they are scientifcally established facts based upon sophisticated testing capability...but...that sophisticated testing capability did not exist back then.
One example just recently was all the knashing of teeth over the case of some controlled experiments with some small charges of 4F as main powder charges...some people were repeating the same old anecdotal phrases like "I'll never put 4F in my barrel" or "4F will blow up your gun" or "make sure I'm not around when you experiment with it"...etc, etc, etc...all clever sayings to imply that the poster "actually knows something scientific" when in fact none of them "knew" anything scientific at all.
Liability is also a big influence on the paranoia...even in our relatively modern times your proof charge example is well more than twice the max load published by T/C in their BP handbook...so while I will always remain cautious I rarely take old sayings at face value anymore, knowing there are huge safety margins already built in to existing load data.
Thanks for sharing...
I double loaded a .50 cal. once, one load on top another, with a maxi-ball in bewteen. I was green as a gourd, and never heard of pulling a ball. I tied the rifle in a tree and touched it off with a string. Lots of noise and smoke, but it didn't appear to do anything to the rifle. I would guess the second powder load didn't go off. All I knew at the time was that there was a lot of ramrod stickin' out when I got done loading it. This was 30 years ago or more, and I think I have learned a few things since. Pahaska
Heck, I've got some of TC's early BP handbooks which actually have legitimate listings like double ball loads for .45 and .50cal muzzleloaders...and I've tried them, no problem at all...(and surprisingly accurate out to the 50yds I've played with them)Pahaska said:
Larry Pletcher
50 Cal.
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Many years ago there was an article in Buckskin Report about blowing up a barrel. As I remember the writer tried increasing loads to blow up the barrel - without success. Eventually after many tries, he tried a HEAVY load, ball on the powder, followed by another ball some inches away. That did it rather nicely. Someone above mentioned obstruction or a ball not seated on the powder. This writer would agree.
Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
AeroncaTAL
50 Cal.
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I short started a ball on my .54 GPR, got distracted, didn't seat the ball. It fired fine. As soon as I pulled the trigger, I thought oh no, what did I just do? Needless to say I looked the barrel over VERY carefully. No bulging, no ring where the short started ball was, no cracks, nothing. I wasn't using anything near 215 gr of powder, but I do consider myself pretty durned lucky. I also probably will not short start again.
Scott
Scott
General Electric talks about this?
Sure. Put about 200 grains in the barrel and seat a nice, tight ball about half way down. Have your mother-in-law pull the trigger.
OOP! I didn't read as far down as 41 Aeronca's post. He was lucky.
Sure. Put about 200 grains in the barrel and seat a nice, tight ball about half way down. Have your mother-in-law pull the trigger.
OOP! I didn't read as far down as 41 Aeronca's post. He was lucky.
Hey Roundball,
In a recent post on "Muzzleloader Misconceptions" there was the following:
From the other posts in this topic it sounds like the above is not a misconception. I remember reading that in the days when muzzleloaders were "standard issue", they would develop a max load by firing over a snowbank and look for unburned powder.
Old Coot :hmm:
In a recent post on "Muzzleloader Misconceptions" there was the following:
From the other posts in this topic it sounds like the above is not a misconception. I remember reading that in the days when muzzleloaders were "standard issue", they would develop a max load by firing over a snowbank and look for unburned powder.
Old Coot :hmm:
Not to be picking on roundball, but he said it all when he said: "...I rarely take old sayings at face value anymore, knowing there are huge safety margins already built in to existing load data."
Note the words "existing load data".
The way I read the question it's asking about any load imaginable.
No, I don't have any data however we must realize that our guns are made out of some rather weak material. They are not made out of the types of steel the cartridge guns use so rather than talking about 220,000 PSI Tensile strength in a cartridge gun, we are talking about 75,000 PSI in our muzzleloaders.
That 75,000 PSI does not mean the gun is safe for that pressure because there often isn't a square inch of material that is trying to resist the loads pressure. For example, the area of the threads for a 1/4-28 nipple is only .0364 square inches.
I've heard folks say things like "Black powder is really weak. It can't make really high pressures so you can't overload a gun shooting black powder..."
Reading Lymans Black Powder Handbook, one can find Black powder pressures of 26,200 PSI and Pyrodex pressuers of 31,500 PSI, so it is obvious that Black Powder isn't weak.
By the way, those loads were max recommended loads, but they still are "published loads".
Are they safe?? In my opinion, because some of the proof houses valadate their guns at pressures far below these, they might be safe but I wouldn't want to shoot them in any of my muzzleloaders.
When I see strengths of materials like we use, and proven pressures like the above I have to put my Engineering hat on and say Yes, it is very possible to overload a muzzleloader using black powder and I hope I never have to hear about the guy who died trying to prove me wrong.
zonie
Note the words "existing load data".
The way I read the question it's asking about any load imaginable.
No, I don't have any data however we must realize that our guns are made out of some rather weak material. They are not made out of the types of steel the cartridge guns use so rather than talking about 220,000 PSI Tensile strength in a cartridge gun, we are talking about 75,000 PSI in our muzzleloaders.
That 75,000 PSI does not mean the gun is safe for that pressure because there often isn't a square inch of material that is trying to resist the loads pressure. For example, the area of the threads for a 1/4-28 nipple is only .0364 square inches.
I've heard folks say things like "Black powder is really weak. It can't make really high pressures so you can't overload a gun shooting black powder..."
Reading Lymans Black Powder Handbook, one can find Black powder pressures of 26,200 PSI and Pyrodex pressuers of 31,500 PSI, so it is obvious that Black Powder isn't weak.
By the way, those loads were max recommended loads, but they still are "published loads".
Are they safe?? In my opinion, because some of the proof houses valadate their guns at pressures far below these, they might be safe but I wouldn't want to shoot them in any of my muzzleloaders.
When I see strengths of materials like we use, and proven pressures like the above I have to put my Engineering hat on and say Yes, it is very possible to overload a muzzleloader using black powder and I hope I never have to hear about the guy who died trying to prove me wrong.
zonie
In one of my answers I told the proofing load of the proofing authorities in GE. But they also give a maximum using load. If you use this load out of a technical o.k. gun you won't blow it up. These load is for example in cal .54 138.6 grs with a 431 grs conical. And this is much more as Lyman or Investarm gives as a safe load, but it is safe and can be used in every ML-replica which has the hallmark of a German proofing authoritiy
