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Blow up of ML?

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Old Coot said:
I remember reading that in the days when muzzleloaders were "standard issue", they would develop a max load by firing over a snowbank and look for unburned powder.

In my personal opinion, that's an example of what I consider to be an old wives tale.

As easy as black powder is to ignite, I feel very strongly that any unburned kernels that might exit the bore would immediately be consumed by the 3 feet of flame in the muzzle blast before they ever had a chance to drop out of that muzzle blast...and all that drops to the ground is really BP residue...my .02 cents.
 
A Long time ago, in a Land FAR FAR AWAY, I watched a Period correct documentary on building a Hawken rifle. They made everything, Lock, Stock, and barrel.

To proof the barrel, they, "According to the documentary" loaded the barrel in a crude vise with 7 times the normal powder charge and touched it off.

Now what was the Normal charge?

I don't remember what caliber it was either.

If it swelled up or blew up, Obviously, they would start over.

The barrel was the first thing they made.

Headhunter
 
Roy Keeler in Michigan,Had been a gunsmith collector and shooter from the beginning , when the old guns were available,had a collection of blown barrel sections mounted on a board with causes labeled on it. Roy is Gone. Wonder what happened to that collection,did it sell at his auction ??? He lived in Eaton Rapids MI. :hatsoff:
 
Just an additional observation to Zonie's good advice: Don't forget that there are many ML rifles and shotguns that were made in the 19th Century, and even earlier that are still being used. The metal used in those barrels, and breechplugs, and vent liners, or nipples, is not the same quality that was used in the 20th century or in this 21st century. And, Old age also affects these old barrel's ability to withstand chamber pressures.

The one barrel I saw reported on in Buckskin Report, many years ago, had blown out through the first Barrel Key slot , and chattered the forearm of the stock. The close up picture of the dovetail slot showed that it was cut way too deep and that there was barely any metal at all between the outside edge of that slot, and the bore inside. The other keyways were cut at a more proper depth.

You have to be concerned not only with the outside size of the barrel, but what kinds of holes, and slots are drilled or cut in to that barrel, and how deep they go. The closer any hole or cut is to the back of the barrel where chamber pressures are going to be the highest, the more metal you want between the bottom of the slot, or drillhole.

I have seen rear sight dovetails cut way too deep into thin barrels, by over enthusiastic gun builders. The gun barrels have not ruptured, yet, but I won't be surprised if I hear that such a barrel does give way when some idiot decided to see just how much powder that gun can shoot, with a couple of conicals thrown in.
 
rebel said:
Heck RC, you get confused easy when you are the ONLY one talking. :grin:

RC said:
ITS THE VOICES :shocked2: REBEL...IT'S THE VOICES.... RC :shake:

my mom used to tell me it was ok to talk to yerself....
it was also ok to answer yerself....
the trouble came when ya asked yerself what ya just said :rotf: :youcrazy: :surrender: ....
[url] Kirrmeister....in[/url] germany when they proof yer gun, what is the chance of them damaging it without any noticible signs :hmm: and the next time ya fire it is when the damage occures :v ............bob
 
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I saw the same type film (I think in the '70s) in Williamsburg...Gusler made a barrel, double charged, double balled, put it in a wooden vise, ran a fuse into the touchhole and lit...they claimed if the barrel didn't blow it was fine....If I remember correctly if it did blow..."They took a drink of spring water, said a few choice words to the mountains and started all over again"....I for one would have to have something stronger than spring water if I just blew up a weeks worth of work....

I "proofed" the .54 that I made back in '89...Was told to do wo by the gentleman I bought the parts from...Double charged (200 grains FF), double balled, rammed both down together, tied the stock to a tire, ran a string and set it off...Didn't blow....(I was a fool, don't try this at home)

One thing not mentioned...What caliber??? What barrel thickness???

My .54 has a 1 1/16 tapered Ed Rayle barrel...When my Bob Watts gun had a .45 barrel (I changed to .40) it was a 13/16 straight barrel...

Also...Dixie Gun Works showed one of their barrel sections that had been threaded and breached on each end, tapped and set off with I believe 200 grains of powder (it didn't blow)...

The highest I have ever charged my .54 was with 120 grains FF...Without hornets nest, etc. between powder and ball I was burning patches...For years I shot 100 grains FF for deer and 50 for squirrel...The past 10 7-9 I have gone to 80grs of FF and get the same results....
 
Many moons ago, Green River posted an experiment in blowing a barrel up in Muzzleblasts. It was done because of a rash of lawsuits over muzzleloading barrels blowing up with supposedly normal loads. They took a barrel and cut wedge slots, screw holes, straight cuts, and just about anything else you can think of in the barrel. Some had things in the cuts or screw holes but most did not. They started with 100 grains under 2 balls. The first damage was a bulge at 400 grains under 4 balls if I remember correctly. They blew the barrel at 600 with six balls, again, if I am remembering correctly. It never did actually blow, but it buldged big enough to stop the test.
Fast forward to today. Load 300 grains of 3f 777 under three patched roundballs. BOOM! The changes in Goex over the years also would change the result.
In the end, there is a good safety margin in our guns most of the time. Playing way out on limbs causes people to fall out of trees! Same thing with muzzleloaders.
 
But I would bet that they don't short-start a projectile when they proof.

I wish I knew how to post photos here, if possible. I have some dandy photos of a Sile Hawken from back in 1985 that some shooter short-started a maxi over 70 grains of Pyrodex. The maxi was sitting about 6 inches in from the muzzle. The barrel came apart as a result.
 
Something that always makes me shake my head at the trap or skeet range (modern) is that if a shhooter has a squib re-load, the primer still has enough force to get the plastic shotgun wad up into the barrel but usually not out of it...and 99.9% of the time the 'report' is so obviously different you and fellow shooters hear it and know what's happend...everybody stops the shooter, check the bore, push the wad out, and resume shooting.

But every now and then, somehow somebody manages to chamber another shell and bursts the barrel apart like flower petals...a plastic wad only weighs a fraction of an ounce, yet rather than simply be forced out of the barrel, the wad sits there and the barrel bursts right behind it...always amazes me.
 
Yep, that's what short starting is! Leaving an airspace is the most reliable way to damage a barrel.
Why did you want us to call you an idiot? Okay, you're an idiot! :thumbsup:
Meeting rule #4: Always have someone at your meeting who will ask the obvious questions that everyone else is too embarrassed to ask. More gets done that way.
Moose
 
Yes, that's short starting...As you load, you start the ball with your short starter, then forget to pull out the ramrod and seat the ball on the powder...

Just another reason to never get into the dreaded habit of using a short starter.... :rotf:
 
LeatherMoose said:
Meeting rule #4: Always have someone at your meeting who will ask the obvious questions that everyone else is too embarrassed to ask. More gets done that way.
Moose

Yeh, I'm usually that guy. :shake:
 
RenegadeGuy54 said:
questions that everyone else is too embarrassed to ask. More gets done that way.
Moose

Yeh, I'm usually that guy. :shake: [/quote]
wonder how many injuries and acts of hmm, "not smart" you've let people avoid you cause you were smart enough to ask the question?? if you prevented one,you've done good! :thumbsup: RC
 
RG54, an important related tip if you don't already know it it to put a 'witness mark' on your ramrod so you can determine the status of your barrels contents at any time.

In my case I decided to use electrician's tape...when I get to the range and plan to shoot patched ball target loads of 50grns for example, I'll pour the powder, seat a patched ball properly, then while the ramrod is still sitting on top of the ball, wrap a piece of electrician's tape around the rod so the bottom edge of the tape is flush with the top of the muzzle.

Then every time you load, that tape mark will stop in the same place.

If the width of the tape drops halfway down into the bore, you'll immediately know you either left out the powder charge, or haven't seated a ball yet;

Conversely, if the tape stops above the muzzle, you'll know you've either double charged it with powder, or you've seated two balls...or both.

One of the old sayings that has truth to it is:
There are two kinds of people who have dry-balled or double charged/double balled...those who have and those who will.

It's easy to get distracted at a range and a witness mark on a ramrod is an essential tool for determining the status of a barrel...and you should discipline yourself from the beginning, if you ever step away from your rifle, the first thing you should do when you step back to it is slide the rod down bore and see exactly what it's condition is...don't trust your memory...create a discipline.

The good thing about the tape is the next time you have a range session you might be shooting 80grns of powder...just peel the tape off and reposition it for an 80grn load.
 
I think I have Sam Fadala's book somewhere in which he shows special little devices made from some kind of pipes and affixed to boards. These he handily bulged and blew apart with short seated balls. Not that it was hard, it wasn't .

It was me who posted about making corrections to my old Black Powder Digest. The part was kind of cavalier in the author's attitude. Think it was the section on shooting the .58 Zouave. I would not wan't to seriously overload a musket.

Read somewhere that the Italian proofs are pretty definitive in that they have a special powder just for that.

On don't-try-this-at-home proofing, what do you all do after you've completed the proof? What's the SOP for seeing if it's still safe to shoot?

Black powder can produce some serious pressures. I believe it was Rodman (of Rodman gun fame) who did some work in the 1870's or so using special pressed and perforated wafers of black powder. Got pressures over 125,000 psi. Maybe the pressure in a short start is amplified by rebounding shock waves?
 
I don't know what the proofing houses criteria for success is or if they run any NDT (Non Destructive Testing) on the successful barrels.

I do know that the jet engine company I worked for before retireing did run "destructive tests" like a guns proof test on many of their parts, but even more importantly, they always subjected the parts to a NDT like Magnetic Particle, Fluorescent Penetrant, X-Ray, Ultrasonic or Eddy Current evaluations.
These tests were designed to determine if some flaw was opened up or created in the material. Such a flaw could cause failure the next time the part was subjected to similar but lesser stresses.

zonie :)
 
CK Muzzle Blast a 4 month thing on barrels at the end of 85 into 86,," RIFLE BARREL STEELS A REBUTAL" they got up to 500 grs and 5 balls without any problems,( not for the 32 , 36 cal) this guy (one of the barrel makers in March 86 shot a 50 cal 500 times at 50,000 psi without nothing going on??? Myself know of 3 people on here (or have been on and moved on) that hot "stake busting" with 5 balls and 200 grs of 2f for over 20 yrs, same guns , same loads, no problem. Im the wuss Ive only shot 2 balls and 150grs in 58 and 62, with no problems as well as by weight 4 f.BUT as the guy wrote in the last story and Ive read before BP can Explode, Detonation can happen about "as often as getting hit by a meteorite in your rocking chair" A one in a zillion thing and it happens from UNDERLOADING?? :confused: OH YA I dont recomend anything but what the maker of your rifle has as a max load, Ive shot 150 grs out of my CVA Mountain sometimes messing around as well as 4f loads, but thats me. You dont gain a thing over loading, 25 to 50 grs more for 50 fps isnt a real smart trade off. Just my 2 cents , order the back iss of MB for a 1.50 and read it , it will give ya :hmm: at least. AGAIN they would shoot 5 balls and 500 grs of 2f BUT not 70 grs and 1 ball out of a 36.....Fred :hatsoff:
 
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