Blown Patches

[billk]

I have been shooting my .54 cal hawken style rifle and I noticed that when I use 80 grains of 3F GOEX black powder my pillow ticking patches are blown.
I do not have that problem when I use 80 grains of 2F GOEX powder. I cannot tell you the exact thickness of the patch, as I do not own a micrometer yet. The ball is a .530 Hornady.
Does that happen because of the higher pressure generated by the 3F powder?
I am still working to get my groups small, however I have not seen too much difference of the group size between the 2 types of powder. I seem to like the 3F better as it produces less fouling and cleans easier.
Any suggestions on my problem?
Thank you,
Billk

 

I had the same problem with charges over 90 grs. in my .58 cal. Hawken. I went to the same thickness of patching with a tighter weave cotton duck for patching and the burnt patches stopped. Same lube and ball with a tighter weave made all the difference. Now I can go up to 180 grs. of 2 ff Goex with no blow out.
The 180 gr. charge is not something I recommend in small barrels and I don't shoot it often. Just letting you know how important it is to shoot a high thread count weave and tight.

 

[paulvallandigham]

3Fg powder burns faster, and at a higher pressure and temperature than does 2Fg powder. For a .54, you probably will have less felt recoil using 2Fg powder, although you will probably have to use 95 to 100 grains of 2Fg powder to get the same velocity as you are getting with the 80 Grains of 3Fg.

Frankly, if you run that load over a chronograph, you really don't need that much of a load for killing deer, nor does it flatten your trajectory out flat enough over 100 yards to justify the cost of the extra powder.

In the Civil War, a paper cartridge .54-50 was used to good effect. That is a .54 caliber barrel, with 50 grain of powder behind a conical bullet. A 50 grain charge will kill all the whitetail deer you shoot at out past 100 yds, with a round ball. Back those loads down, save the powder, and save your shoulder. You will shoot more, and be a better shooter for it.

 

In the Civil War, a paper cartridge .54-50 was used to good effect. That is a .54 caliber barrel, with 50 grain of powder behind a conical bullet. A 50 grain charge will kill all the whitetail deer you shoot at out past 100 yds, with a round ball. Back those loads down, save the powder, and save your shoulder. You will shoot more, and be a better shooter for it.

Paul, do you care to edit this portion of your last post? It makes no sense to me. :hmm:
A .54 conical with a 50 grs. charge may kill all the deer past 100 yards. I dunno. But a .54 caliber roundball is going to just P.O. a buck out past 100 yards.(IMHO the usual qualifier)

 

[paulvallandigham]

No, Cooner, I do not. A round ball in .54 weighs 230 grain, which is half an ounce of lead. It is a real freight train going down range, and it will kill a deer out to 100 yds, and probably beyond. This was the load that Jim Bridger, the famous Mountain Man and Explorer of the American West, who found South Pass, and was one of the first Americans to visit Yellowstone, after John Colter, used in his Hawken. His powder measure hangs in a museum out therealong with his gun and powder horn, and possibles bag, and was the subject of an article in Muzzle Blasts about 20 years ago.

 

[redwing]

Bridger carried a 1/2 charger as did most Mtn.Men. He could use the 1/2 charger for short range small game etc. That does not mean he was hunting Elk and Mule deer with 50 Grs of powder. What it means is 2 dips gave him a standard load of 100 Grs.
As far as Bridger finding South Pass? Well that is another story for another thread. This has nothing to do with his loading a rifle. As far as the Civil Carbines with 50 Gr. loads they were total failures in the west for hunting or fighting. :cursing:

 

:thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Swampman]

A .530 ball is too big for a .54 caliber rifle. Go to a .520 and a thicker patch. 60 grains of 3F is plenty for deer.

 

[Halftail]

A .530 ball is too big for a .54 caliber rifle. Go to a .520 and a thicker patch. 60 grains of 3F is plenty for deer.

With all due respect Mark,
Aren't Florida Deer just little Puny things?

 

[Swampman]

They are about the size of Texas deer.

 

[Halftail]

They are about the size of Texas deer.

For some reason I was under the impression they were just small.
My mistake.
I like 90 grains and sometimes 100 grains of 3f to kill them thickskinned bucks up here.

 

[Swampman]

A good sized buck might weigh 150-175 lbs. The does are usually smaller. Here in NW FL we have some deer that are a larger sub-species than those found further south.

 

[MikeChapin]

A .515 ball and 80 grains 3F will drop an elk within 100 yards so I guess there should be no problem with a deer.

For the mulies around here I usually use a .50 with 70 grains. That load will shoot through the chest on a mulie at 50 yards or less and come to rest under the skin on the opposite side at 100 yards.

 

[longcruise]

I can't find a single reference to shooting a deer in billk's original question! :wink:

How come so many posts on this board regarding load, caliber, etc. seem to degenerate into a discussion of what it takes to kill a deer? :rotf:

billk, IMO, you have encountered the biggest problem most shooters have in gaining accuracy and consistency in their shooting. Most patch material has a load point at which it will fail. Not all patch material, but most. Your load of 80 gr 3f is just enough increase in pressure to blow your patch. The straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

Patch material will fail if it is not tough enough or if it is not tight enough, or, if your barrel is not broken in and the sharp edges of the rifling are cutting the patches. The material you are using might hold up better if you go to a .535 ball, providing it is not too difficult to load in your barrel. OTOH, tightening up with a larger ball may not solve the probelem if the patch material is not tough enough or if your rifling is too sharp and is cutting the patching.

A high quality patch material is a wonderful thing and should be bought in large quanitities and selfishly hoarded in a secret place!

FWIW, I'll iterate my own method of arriving at the "perfect" load.

First, If you think your barrel may be overly sharp and cutting patches, you should lap it. There are several ways to lap a barrel but I find the easiest and fastest way to do it is to firelap it. Always use a genuine lapping compound as opposed to a homemade concoction. Twnty or 25 shots with lap impregnated conicals and with the bore wiped thoroughly between shots will take care of any overly sharp rifling.

Once I know that the barrel will not be a problem, I head to the range with a large variety of patching materials and usually two ball sizes. For a .54, for example, i'd take along .530 and .535 balls. I start out by arbitrarily deciding what is the heaviest charge I would ever shoot in the rifle at hand. Check your manufacturers max load recommendations and use that, for example. Start shooting your patch material at that max charge. Shoot about five of each patch material with each of the two ball sizes. Recover your patches from each test before you start with another patch material. so as not to confuse which patch is whcih. Usually the various patch materials will have some distinctive marking such as a stripe, but not always. Use colored marker pens to identify the plain ones that could be confused. "Read" your patches and determine which patch and ball combo held up the best, then start with you load work-up for either target accuracy or hunting accuracy.

Most shooters simply start in with load work-up and usually hit a point where their group is opening up. It's assumed that the barrel won't shoot anything higher than such and such a load and they settle on a load beneath the one that began to open up. What is often happening is the patch ball combo has reached a pressure limit and is blowing.

My own experience with the above method has shown that with the best and toughest ball/patch combo shot from a good quality or at least properly lapped barrel, just about any load will shoot with reasonable accuracy. Some charges will be more accurate, but the differences are often hard to see.

I have a .45 that will shoot with equal accuracy with a charge of 20 to 60 grains of 3f or 2f. There is probably a "sweet spot" or two in there but 30 or 35 grains is all I need for that gun for small game or targets and so that's what I shoot.

 

[Halftail]

How come so many posts on this board regarding load, caliber, etc. seem to degenerate into a discussion of what it takes to kill a deer? :rotf: .

Because there are many differant opinions on what it takes to Bring that "Big one" down.It's called discussion.Pretty boring world if every one agreed.Wouldn't you say? :v

 

[mommicked]

Personally, I'm much more interested in deer hunting, and I'll bet our ancestors were too. They didn't have much powder to blow on targets, at least in the early days.

But I've got a question that will really prove my ignorance here, but I got to ask. Why can't a feller just put a cardboard wad between powder and patch? It may not do any better job of preventing gas from getting by, but it should keep the patch in wonderful condition.

Ok, dumb question in place, fire at will!

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you contact Circle Fly Wads( see the links here under member resources) they can sell you just that for any caliber rifle you own. Yes, it does protect the patches from burning. Also, other fillers, such as corn meal, cream of wheat, and synthetic fillers like PufLon also work. They all provide a better seal against gases blowing up the grooves than do most cloth patches, unless you use an oversized ball and hammer it into the barrel. There are men who use teflon coated patches so that they can do just that- use an oversized ball that they hammer to start down their barrels. The Teflon is slick enough to all the ball and patch to enter the muzzle without tearing, and then the PRB slides down the barrel on the teflon very easily. The teflon also protects the patch from burning, allowing the use of thinner patches.

It was not a dumb question. On the contrary, it shows that you are thinking about what has been said, and then solving the problem. Not too many people are comfortable sovling problems, themselves.

 

[longcruise]

Because there are many differant opinions on what it takes to Bring that "Big one" down.It's called discussion.Pretty boring world if every one agreed.Wouldn't you say?

Frankly, I thought Billk's question deserved a direct answer and find it disconcerting when the thread goes off on a tangent leaving the question unanswered. Billk may not care two hoots about shooting a deer or anything else. OTOH, he may already know enough to be an expert on the subject and simply wanted some help with blown patches.

Killed my first deer with a .22 long (long rifles were too expensive :redface: )

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

At the risk of being redundant, I'll say try the circle-fly THIN cards. They do help save my patches. My normal load is 70 gr. 3Fg Goex in the .50 cal. trade rifle.

The cards also help to cut-down on the fouling build-up as well, probably due to a better gas seal resulting in more complete combustion . When I switched to using the cards I shot the gun all day without having to run a cleaning patch or brush down the bore!

Dave

 

I gave him a direct answer in the first post after his'n. :shake: A tighter weave higher thread count did the trick.