Blown Patches

[paulvallandigham]

We are talking about short ranges, here, Rabbit. 100 yds, is not very long, and most game is shot much closer than even that distance. A 230 grain RB fired from a .54 cal. rifle in front of 50 grains of BP is going to act not much different than that .54 cal. conical, again, AT SHORT RANGES. The .44-40 slug was about the same weight as the .54 RB.

I see several references to using 60-65 grains of powder in .50-.54-and .58 cal. guns. I use 70 grains in my .62 smoothie, with RB. 60 grains in a .58, and 50 grains in a .54 should be about right. However, once you drop down below 200 grains in weight, I think you have to use more powder since the weight of the ball just doesn't seem to give you much help at 75 and 100 yds.

I'll wave as your train goes by.

 

[rabbit03]

I think you got off track here and did not address Billk's question. He is wanting to know about burnt patches and accuracy and not wheather or not he should be saving powder or worrying about felt recoil!

I have offered a solution to his problem, which is to go to a heavier thicker woven cotton ducking to solve the problem. I am not of the crowd that would want to find a bandaid (cards, wasp nest, wadding, etc) to put in between the powder and patched ball but would rather see him solve his problem and get on with his shooting accurately.

We are arguing about nothing here and not addressing his concerns :hmm:

rabbit03

 

[rabbit03]

I'll wave at yours :blah: :rotf: :surrender:

rabbit03

 

[paulvallandigham]

Rabbit: I don't happen to think that your solution works for everyone, and in every gun. I do think that wads, and fillers happen to solve the problem in some guns in some calibers. It depends on the depth and width of the grooves in a barrel, how easy or difficult it is to keep gas from blowing and burning the patches. :surrender: :hatsoff:

 

[rabbit03]

I happen to think that my solution is one that could be applied to 90% or more rifle shooter out there who are having problems with accuracy. Tight patch/ball combo is the key.

I also know that a band-aid of sorts will stop the bleeding too but it may not be the cure for the reason it is bleeding.

To cure 99% of the problems in accuracy (excluding the shooter of course) is the patch/ball combonation is not right for their rifle. Rifles are all different and what combo works for me may not work for someone else. But I do know that all these other things people suggest as fixes for their problems is nonsensicle and can be solved very simply by using a tighter woven cotton fabric and the right sized ball for their particular rifle.

YOU DON'T NEED ALL THE OTHER FILLERS, WADS, NESTS, CARDS ETC TO ATTAIN ACCURACY!

And why use all that other stuff if you don't need to in order to solve your problem! In my opinion it is rediculous to use all that other stuff if it is not necessary in the first place.
To me it is nothing short of foolish to offer up all of these other possible solutions to the problem when the fix is right there in front of you.

Now if you are in the woods and your patching is lost and you have to use your shirt then by all means hunt you up some wasp nest as a filler I guess.

But if your that bad off you best get to the house anyway and try it again another day or simply shoot the critter close up so you won't have to worry when minute of deer accuracy will do. How many of us have run out of patching material hunting??? And if you did, so what, just use your socks or shirt tail no big deal. But we are not talking about emergency situations here and how to address those issues. We are talking about blown out patches and how to solve that and how to achieve the same accuracy as our Forfathers did, NO?

In my opinion when you talk about all of the voodoo stuff like I mentioned above you have to be talking about an emergency situation and not what is the normal situation! I think we covered that the wasp nest was for smoothbore anyway in the last big hurah concerning all of this.




rabbit03 (waving as you go by) :snore:

 

:thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[rabbit03]

Marmotslayer knows what he is talking about, just as some others on here do.


I can't find a single reference to shooting a deer in billk's original question!

How come so many posts on this board regarding load, caliber, etc. seem to degenerate into a discussion of what it takes to kill a deer?

billk, IMO, you have encountered the biggest problem most shooters have in gaining accuracy and consistency in their shooting. Most patch material has a load point at which it will fail. Not all patch material, but most. Your load of 80 gr 3f is just enough increase in pressure to blow your patch. The straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

Patch material will fail if it is not tough enough or if it is not tight enough, or, if your barrel is not broken in and the sharp edges of the rifling are cutting the patches. The material you are using might hold up better if you go to a .535 ball, providing it is not too difficult to load in your barrel. OTOH, tightening up with a larger ball may not solve the probelem if the patch material is not tough enough or if your rifling is too sharp and is cutting the patching.

A high quality patch material is a wonderful thing and should be bought in large quanitities and selfishly hoarded in a secret place!

FWIW, I'll iterate my own method of arriving at the "perfect" load.

First, If you think your barrel may be overly sharp and cutting patches, you should lap it. There are several ways to lap a barrel but I find the easiest and fastest way to do it is to firelap it. Always use a genuine lapping compound as opposed to a homemade concoction. Twnty or 25 shots with lap impregnated conicals and with the bore wiped thoroughly between shots will take care of any overly sharp rifling.

Once I know that the barrel will not be a problem, I head to the range with a large variety of patching materials and usually two ball sizes. For a .54, for example, i'd take along .530 and .535 balls. I start out by arbitrarily deciding what is the heaviest charge I would ever shoot in the rifle at hand. Check your manufacturers max load recommendations and use that, for example. Start shooting your patch material at that max charge. Shoot about five of each patch material with each of the two ball sizes. Recover your patches from each test before you start with another patch material. so as not to confuse which patch is whcih. Usually the various patch materials will have some distinctive marking such as a stripe, but not always. Use colored marker pens to identify the plain ones that could be confused. "Read" your patches and determine which patch and ball combo held up the best, then start with you load work-up for either target accuracy or hunting accuracy.

Most shooters simply start in with load work-up and usually hit a point where their group is opening up. It's assumed that the barrel won't shoot anything higher than such and such a load and they settle on a load beneath the one that began to open up. What is often happening is the patch ball combo has reached a pressure limit and is blowing.

My own experience with the above method has shown that with the best and toughest ball/patch combo shot from a good quality or at least properly lapped barrel, just about any load will shoot with reasonable accuracy. Some charges will be more accurate, but the differences are often hard to see.

I have a .45 that will shoot with equal accuracy with a charge of 20 to 60 grains of 3f or 2f. There is probably a "sweet spot" or two in there but 30 or 35 grains is all I need for that gun for small game or targets and so that's what I shoot.

Thanks for your post :thumbsup: It is good to see another follower of the light.

rabbit03

 

[rabbit03]

Greetings Marmotslayer,

I was going back over some of the posts on this stuff and while re-reading yours I found one of your observations interesting.

Most shooters simply start in with load work-up and usually hit a point where their group is opening up. It's assumed that the barrel won't shoot anything higher than such and such a load and they settle on a load beneath the one that began to open up. What is often happening is the patch ball combo has reached a pressure limit and is blowing.

I think you are probably right and that this happens alot to some shooters. They need to just start with a patching material that is foolproof from the beginning and then start working their loads up with ball size and powder weight. That would take the patching problem out of the equasion when they have problems. The only thing I can think of that would allow any burn through on a good quality patch would be either a barrel that is not good (sharp adges etc) or using a ball diameter that is too small which would allow the super hot gasses under that tremendous preasure burn right past the loosly fitted patch/ball combo. Otherwise there should always be a good seal and the accuracy problems could be narrowed down to other elements and not the patching.

:thumbsup:

rabbit03

 

[longcruise]

I agree, when I read my own patches or the patches of another shooter i usually see one of three things. A survivor that is intact, A patch that is cut by the rifling but still pretty much survived and a completely destroyed patch that is frayed and burned and often has holes in the sides of it.

I don't think patches ever fail at the base that is covered by the ball and faces the powder. Many shooters seem to think that is the point at which a patch will burn through but mine never have.