BP handgun for hunting

[theoldredneck]

I confess to being new to muzzle loaders, but not to handgun hunting. Playing with muzzle loading handguns and doing side by side penetration test has given me a much greater respect for them. Given the right load and within ranges I'm comfortable with taking deer would not be a problem. I have more problems with the people that do not shoot enough to know their limits with gun of choice than the guns. Killing game should not be a matter of a lucky shot, but the combination of skill and determination to do it right. I pass on a lot of questionable shots because I have helped find gut shot and crippled deer where people didn't.

 

[Dphar]

Deer are not that hard to kill. 50-54 with a decent charge will do the job.
Colt Dragoons were used to run buffalo back in the day. But I would still rather use something like this for a hunting pistol.

Energy is virtually meaningless as a gauge of killing power at BP velocity levels so don't get too impressed with the numbers.

Dan

 

[Billnpatti]

I would rule out the revolver for deer. in my opinion, it just doesn't have enough knock down power to guarantee a clean kill. The .54 GPP can kill a deer but you are talking about stalking up to something less than bow range. The pistol lacks the accuracy or knockdown power to make a clean kill much beyond about 25 yards. If you decide to actually try hunting with a pistol, be sure that it is legal where you are hunting. Game laws have some real teeth. Then do not pull the trigger until you are absolutely certain that the ball will strike in a kill zone and not someplace where the deer will escape and die slowly and painfully. It is your ethical responsibility as a hunter to make clean kills. :thumbsup:

 

[swathdiver]

Energy means little when we're talking about dead soft round balls. There's no comparison between a hard cast .38 special and a .454 soft lead round ball fired from a cap and ball revolver. The wound channel is going to be devastating, especially if that soft lead strikes bone and flattens out. It'll quickly take the fight out of most anything.

Seems governments have fallen for the energy trap too and now exclude the same guns our ancestors successfully took game with for hundreds of years.

Even ole Elmer Keith knew that .44 pistol shots did more damage to game than modern rifles.

I'll also reiterate for those not up to date, the latest ballistic tests with .44 round ball, modern powder and conical bullets has them in .41/.44 magnum territory. With such a load a hunter has nothing to fear from ANY North American game.

 

[Dickydalton]

Umm, I hate to be this way as I have something like 18 black powder guns that I love to shoot etc. but, I also have more modern guns, including 44 magnums. There is absolutely no way on earth you can say that any of my Old Armies or any Colt Walker with any load can keep up with one of my 44 Magnums. Sorry, not today or tomorrow either.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

As a fellow Hog Hunter (280+ pounds) I can attest to the efficiency of a conical fired from my Uberti Colt Walker. At 20 yards, I got a 1-shot stop with a 225 grain Lee conical through both lungs. The modern hunters that day had to take head shots to dispatch their Hogs, since the fast rifle bullets went into the ground and released most of their energy THERE! A larger, slow-moving bullet that's heavy enough to carry a punch with a significant wound channel will harvest game all day long.

Shootists (good & well-practiced Competitors with rifles, pistols and shotguns--all) like myself who choose to go into the woods with a hand gun BELONG in the woods with a hand gun. We KNOW where the round is going BEFORE the ignition takes place. Folks who never practice, then buy a license simply because they think they can shoot a hand gun, don't belong in the woods AT ALL! They're as much a danger to themselves as to the Sport in general.

Like Clint said, "A Man has got to KNOW his limitations"

So if you don't think you're good enough to hit the vitals with a hand gun, then stick to what you CAN hit with.

I am sorry that NJ doesn't allow Shootists to use C&B Revolvers during Muzzleloader season....instead we have to put-up with wiz-bangs that don't even need to use THEIR rifle to pass a hunting test, they don't practice, trying to use a rifle that's foreign to them (and shoots stuff other than lead)! All for the sake of merely "extending the season"......

Dave

 

[swathdiver]

Dave (smokin .50): Great post!

Dicky Dalton: Have you fired Triple 7 or SWISS 3F or 4F behind a Kaido 255 grain conical in any of your revolvers yet? :wink:

 

[nkbj]

Deer are not that hard to kill. 50-54 with a decent charge will do the job.
Colt Dragoons were used to run buffalo back in the day. But I would still rather use something like this for a hunting pistol.

Energy is virtually meaningless as a gauge of killing power at BP velocity levels so don't get too impressed with the numbers.

Dan

Nice pistol sir.
As much as I dislike packing iron where it isn't needed for strength, the barrel ponderance of a straight octangonal sure can make for a good shooting pistol. To a large degree it damps the jump and wiggle.

 

[BGRooster1]

Seems many have little knowledge of what can be done with a percussion revolver. The testing done back in the 60's and 70's, that many of us remember, was lacking. No ones fault cause they didn't know any better. I laugh when I read some of the shooting results from back when I first started in black powder. We now have powders that are closer than ever to what was reported to be used in percussion revolvers back when the originals shipped from the factories.
Remember guys ,many of the people that don't shoot black powder at all think we are all just living in some fantasy world.They think we wound more deer than harvest no matter what we use.

 

[Dickydalton]

Swiss 3F and Lee Conicals in two of my ROAs and they come up Way short of my 44 Magnums and some of my 44 Specials.

 

[jaxenro]

How would you compare that load to a 38 special though?

 

to the over all thread.
However you do not want muzzle energy or velocity.
You want the impact energy on the target.
Out to about 50 yds.Since we are dealing with BP.
But you need velocity combined with mass at the impact site.
http://billstclair.com/energy.html http://www.classifiercalc.com/misc_calcs/me.php
this following link I used 140 gr .454 (rb)
and an estimated impact velocity of 750 fps
comes out to 102 ft lbs
and 950 fps 129 ft lbs. http://www.hornady.com/hits/calculator

 

[Kylongrifle]

Heres a short vid of Tim Farmer taking a doe with a .50 flintlock pistol..About a 25 yard shot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmGoIoKltxw

 

[Dickydalton]

For sure. The 220 grain conical at 950FPS is better than a 158 grain at the same speed.

 

[swathdiver]

The Lee conicals are anemic with their round noses. Try a Kaido 255 grain conical next time. Stuff the chamber full of Swiss 3F or 26gr of 4F and let us know then. :wink:

 

[jaxenro]

In my opinion a Walker with any safe powder and bullet doesn't replicate a 44 magnum and never will. That isn't the question the question is instead is the Walker a viable deer gun using a full load of triple 7, a Kaido 255 grain flat nose bullet, and reasonable distances and shot placement?

And by viable I mean can it kill quickly and ethically and at what distance? 25 yards, 30, 50?

 

[rodwha]

From Mr. Beliveau's testing, which is similar to many other's claimed results, the 255 grn Kaido conical (a redesigned Lee 45 Colt bullet) pushed by a reduced load of 25 grns of 3F Triple 7 with mild compression gave him 920 fps and 479 ft/lbs of energy.

Compare that to a typical 45 Colt hunting load and you'll find they are generally in the low to mid 400 ft/lb range. Isn't a 45 Colt plenty?

There are people who claim a RB is all that is needed. I like the idea of the extra weight which allows for deeper penetration.

Not that jugs of water equate well to flesh, but you can see how much better the 255 grn conical penetrates vs a RB.

This will never equal a magnum, but they don't need to. At this speed it can go from nose to tail through a hog.

 

[rodwha]

Hornady shows a BC of .117 for their 255 grn LFN 45 Colt bullet. Entering that, as it ought to be close, with the 920 fps velocity from Mr. Beliveau's reduced load shows that it would still have 890 fps and 449 ft/lbs @ 25 yds, 863 fps and 422 ft/lbs @ 50 yds and drop 2.3" if zeroed at 25 yds, and 839 fps and 399 ft/lbs @ 75 yds and be 7.4" low with an elevation of 700 ft.

If you can assure a good shot it looks as though you could hunt out to a reasonable distance.

I'm not a great shot, and offhand 25 yds is pushing it for me at this moment. I cannot ethically hunt with mine yet unless the distance was closer or I had a good rest.

 

[cynthialee]

Been watching this thread.

So long as the range was 25 yards or closer I'd have no issue with plugging Bambi or a hog with a pistol bullet.
However....{there is always a however}
Pretty sure that revolvers are not kosher in my state for the BP hunt as it doesn't load from the muzzle.
And there are six bullets in the gun. Which is kid of cheating when everyone else is shooting single shot rifles and smoothbores.
Also if it is kosher state law around these parts say a pistol used to hunt must be able to hold 40 grains of powder. (kind of worded funny, regs say it must be able to be loaded with 40 grains, doesn't say the pistol must be loaded with 40, which is splitting hairs in a way I am sure the game warden wouldn't care to hear.) Also...was that 2, 3 or 4 F... :stir:

Now if the situation was there and I had tags and a revolver in hand pretty sure I'd dirt nap Bambi and wring my hands over technicalities later on.

 

[jaxenro]

My thinking was if I carried it as a backup and the perfect shot presented itself, one I could be confident of making, then trying it. I hunt on private land anyway don't know who would be checking what I carry but WV don't seem to have any open carry laws that I am aware of so I should be able to carry it openly

The Walker can easily hold 40 grains of T-7 which is a bit more than the 25 tested