BP weighed in Troy ounces?

[tom deinek]

Please read the paragraph describing the geographic origins of the troy ounce:
http://www.life123.com/career-money/commodities-2/commodities-trading/what-is-a-troy-ounce.shtml

 

[necchi]

While Mr. Dachary Carey is correct in some of his statements,
The fact he states of gunpowder using troy weight is wrong.

Too many other sources and common experience is available to demonstrate his in-accuracy with this point.
It happens to all of us from time to time.

 

[Zonie]

Quoting from the link you provided:

"...The troy ounce comes from the troy weight system, named after Troyes, France. The fair at Troyes in France was a popular destination during the medieval times, and the troy ounce has been retained as a measure for precious metals and gunpowder...."

Fortunately, they are mistaken when it comes to the weight of canned black powder in the USA.

If you read zimmerstutzen's post up above you will see that the mass of a "grain" is standardized so it is the same regardless of whether it is used in the Troy or the Avoirdupois system.

I said "fortunately" because the powder sold in the USA is measured using the Avoirdupois value for an ounce. That is to say, a pound of powder weighs 16 ounces = 7000 grains.

Had they used the Troy system when canning and selling their powder each pound would only weigh 5760 grains. (The Troy system only has 12 ounces in a pound and although the ounce used in that system weighs 480 grains, you only get 12 ounces in their "pound". 12 X 480 = 5760 grains.)

Hopefully the people who sell black powder won't read this topic. If they do they may realize they can start selling 5760 grain "pounds" instead of the 7000 grain pounds we are buying.

 

[Stumpkiller]

With three drams in my 30 gauge I can drop a deer at 140 arshins.

 

[Wes/Tex]

See...furlongs per fortnight is the answer!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Correct... the fault with the link is that although the "grain" is equal in both Avoirdupois and Troy systems... the amount of grains in an ounce or a pound differ between the systems, and the amount of ounces in a pound differ as well.... the author fails to correct for this.



LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

I haven't followed this thread closely because I simply do not see the point. It quickly devolved into a "who's on first?" routine.
Besides, we all know a pound of lead weighs more than a pound of feathers. :v:

 

[Rusty_Nail]

Besides, we all know a pound of lead weighs more than a pound of feathers. :v:

Is that a pound Avoirdupois or pound sterling? :hmm: Or maybe a Tower pound? :rotf:

 

[Zonie]

The more I think about it, the more it seems the Troy pound was a French merchants method of ripping off the unknowing, visiting population.

When the people bought a "(Troy) pound" of something, they walked off with only 82 percent of the weight they thought they were getting.

"Vous voulez que deux livres de poudre? Voici. Merci.."

(You want two pounds of gunpowder? Here you are. Thank you.)

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Dunno about pounds from Troyes, but as I recall, the common French livre was something like 489 grams*, contrasting with the avoirdupois pond of 454 grams. This is why there can be confusion in anglophone discussions of French firearms. For example, a French musket of nominally 16ga (16/livre) is close to an English-speaker's 14ga.

Regards,
Joel
* approximately - I don't have my references handy. Wes, do you know?

 

[Wes/Tex]

You made me go look it up you rascal! :wink: "Colonial Frontier Guns" by Hamilton is one of the better quick sources and the chapter "Barrels, Balls & Shot" is a quick read for fast facts. The general confusion when comparing U.S. Colonial, British and French firearms of the period is where the first two thought in ball per pound and the French in balls per 'livre'. Add to that the tendency of some French sources to give measurements in 'lignes' & 'points' and things go sideways pretty quick. E.G.:18 balls per livre is listed as both 7 'lignes, 9'points' in one source and 7 'lignes' 4 'points' in another...confused yet? Simply:

1 'livre'=489.50 grams or 7553.96 grains
1 pound avoirdupois=453.59 grams or 6999.8 grains(close enough we call it 7,000 grains)

So for just one example, a 12 bore to the Anglo mind is 12 balls to a pound = .729" bore. Using French balls per 'livre', a 12 bore to them is .800" to .844", allowing 'windage' for a .748" ball. Others may help with this confusion, I'm trying to get ready to be back out at the famous "tree" before dawn. I"ll do some more digging this afternoon if all the answers haven't gome to the top. Caio for now! Bye, bye-buy bonds & save chicken fat!! It might be 1943 somewhere!! :thumbsup: Wish me luck...I'll need it!

Oh, by the by Joel, you still playing with "ye olde twice-barrel carabine" to quote Justin Wilson? Avidly await the answer when I return anon! :thumbsup:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Besides, we all know a pound of lead weighs more than a pound of feathers.

WHAT?

A pound is a pound so long as you are using the same system, and when I buy lead it's not a Troy pound, and when I ship lead it's not a Troy pound. The volume of the two are different, with a pound of lead being about 4"x2"x1" while a pound of feathers (compressed) is probably the size of a basket ball.

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

Besides, we all know a pound of lead weighs more than a pound of feathers.

WHAT?

A pound is a pound so long as you are using the same system, and when I buy lead it's not a Troy pound, and when I ship lead it's not a Troy pound. The volume of the two are different, with a pound of lead being about 4"x2"x1" while a pound of feathers (compressed) is probably the size of a basket ball.

LD

I should have clarified. My statement is only true west of the Mississippi.

 

[MSW]

now, these feather which weigh the purported 'pound...' are they duck feathers, chicken feathers, or goose down? if they're chicken feathers, are they Rhode Island Red, Sliver laced Wyandotte, or Barred Rock?

inquiring minds want to know...

 

[Dphar]

Just learned bp is measured in ozt. I always thought I was buying a 16 oz avoirdupois pound can.

Anybody ever encountered this oddball measurement of gunpowder?

Amazing, the stuff you can learn on PawnStars re-runs.

You bet, like that the number on the loading gate is supposed to match the serial number on a 1st gen SAA Colt :rotf: I was yelling at the TV "its an ASSEMBLY NUMBER YOU DUMB SH*T look under the TG on the frame". It did not listen so their "expert" pronounced it a replacement part But it did allow them to screw someone because the "numbers don't match". If they are as clueless on everything as they are on firearms you can't believe much on the show.

BP is standard commercial weight not Troy, 7000 grains to the pound, 437.5 gr to the ounce.
They did sometimes sell it by the pint before scales were common though.

Dan

 

[GreyWhiskers]

Whilst we're bashing Pawn Stars, I saw an older episode that featured a "Kentucky Longrifle."

It was a half-stock percussion cap rifle. :shocked2: I had to bite my tongue while Rick went on to talk about the early longrifles etc. GW

 

[Zonie]

now, these feather which weigh the purported 'pound...' are they duck feathers, chicken feathers, or goose down? if they're chicken feathers, are they Rhode Island Red, Sliver laced Wyandotte, or Barred Rock?

inquiring minds want to know...

Everyone knows it is the European Swallow feathers which weigh a pound.

The African Swallow feathers weigh much less so its unladen air-speed velocity is much faster .

Even Sir Arthur knew that.

Alas, the Keeper of the Bridge didn't and was thrown to his death. :rotf:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Ah, but what is the airspeed of an African swallow carrying a coconut?

And a dollar is 100 cents but a pound is 240 pennys. But, if you look at a British pound it is only a piece of paper so British ounces must be like postage stamps in weight????

 

[Wes/Tex]

Some times I really feel I should go apply at that place so I could lean over his shoulder and whisper, "No, it's actually a 'snaphaunce'"..."No, it's only a patent date"..."Yes, the Japanese really did attack the Aleutians". That's one dude who shouldn't claim to be an expert in so many areas and then turn around and do an Oops! :wink: :haha:

 

[Wes/Tex]

if they're chicken feathers, are they Rhode Island Red, Sliver laced Wyandotte, or Barred Rock?
inquiring minds want to know...

You should't talk about those things around an old fly fisherman...how daft is it that I now think of a fowler as the quickest way to get the feathers for my other addiction...don't you just love it when a plan comes together? :thumbsup: :rotf:

Can't believe what I babbled for Joel at 5:00ish this morning appears to be right. I shouldn't be allowed to express an opinion that early!